Transcript
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And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast, where we talk faith, culture and everything in between, and with me in studios, none other than Pastor Muhammad Ali, hello, hey, and then also back again is none other than Mrs Katie Sass.
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Katie, welcome, thanks, all right, we're talking, I almost said welcome, welcome, katie, welcome, thanks All right, we're talking.
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I almost said welcome.
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Welcome, that would have been a little weird, but that's okay.
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Hey, we appreciate you.
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We got a question from this week and it's going to be a two-parter because two mega church pastor people kind of gotten some hot water this week.
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So here we go.
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Uh, this one said uh, can you weigh in and offer your opinion on the Josh Howerton situation in Dallas?
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There was an article in Dallas Morning News and that reference is a tweet made, Then an article in Christian Post covering him apologizing.
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Do you think he did anything wrong?
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Do you think he should have apologized?
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How would you handle things if you were in a similar situation?
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So this is going to be part one of the two-parters.
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So Josh Howerton is a lead pastor at Lake Point Church.
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The pastor before him was a cool dude, Steve Stroop, and so this is a legacy mega church that's really renowned in the Dallas area.
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It's East Dallas, yeah it's one of the largest growing churches in the US and it's awesome.
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It's a great church.
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Um, at one point I was considered to be the teaching pastor there, but they didn't actually interview me.
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I don't really know what that means and it's kind of like oh, wow, anyway.
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So, uh, at least they saw my resume at one point.
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Okay, so, uh, here's what happened.
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I'm going to kind of give you the general gist of the joke.
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Here's what happened.
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I'm going to kind of give you the general gist of the joke.
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And then, uh, katie, I'd love for you to kind of give your response as a woman.
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It went something like this Uh, it was like he was talking about marriage and said uh, ladies, you know, um, you were thinking about your wedding day.
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You were like, you were thinking about the flowers, you were thinking about the place settings, you were thinking about the dresses.
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You were thinking about the flowers, you were thinking about the place settings, you were thinking about the dresses.
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You were thinking about your dress and how everything was going to go.
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And so, future husbands, if you want to do this right, you stand where you're told to stand, you wear what you're supposed to wear and you do whatever she tells you to do.
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You stand where she tells you to stand, you wear what she tells you to wear and you do whatever she tells you to do.
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So it was no, as you stand where she tells you to stand, you wear what she tells you to wear and you do what she tells you to do, yeah, and then he kind of goes.
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Then everyone's like, yeah, ha, ha, ha, ha.
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And then he flips it and he goes.
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But you know what Men?
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Their whole lives they've been dreaming about their, and so then he goes.
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So that means wives or ladies, you need to stand where he tells you to stand, wear what he tells you to wear and do what he tells you to do.
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And it was supposed to be funny and honestly I think it's kind of funny.
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It's like a.
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The people were clapping.
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Yeah, they thought it was hilarious.
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They clapped.
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Everyone loved it Nobody.
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So, but then the backlash claim, because what was clipped was like the second part.
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The second part hey women, stand where you're supposed to stand, where you're supposed to wear do what he tells you to do.
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So.
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Katie, I wanted to hear from you just your initial reaction to that, just the in-passing reaction.
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And then, Mo, I'd love to hear from you as well.
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So, Katie, what do you think when you first hear that, um, stand where you're supposed to stand where you're supposed to wear, do what he tells you to do.
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Only the second part.
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Yeah, I mean, I would be highly offended.
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Yeah, now in context, how about that?
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In context no.
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Yeah.
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I would think, oh, it was like that's funny.
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Yeah funny, yeah right, that is funny.
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yeah, and because he's he's not, he's not being a draconian, like he's not encouraging men to to, because he has two, like I just googled him and he quit google search and he has two daughters right and I don't think that he would want his daughters to marry a man that would act that way right like he wouldn't.
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And so I think, if you look at it as like he's hopefully I mean assumingly he's a loving father, he's a loving husband and he just he made a joke that maybe it was a poor joke.
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I don't think it was a very good joke to make on a stage as a pastor.
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It's kind of like consider your role, consider the platform.
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Do you think I would make a joke like that?
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no, really all right thanks which is funny, because you would think plec would make a joke.
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Yeah, I would totally make a joke like that I I yeah if even plec, doesn't make a joke yeah, if even I don't make a joke like that, maybe that's a little, a little far, a little far well, I like to think I, you know, think of you a little higher.
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Thank you Making a joke like that man.
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I don't even think about myself that highly.
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I was like oh man, I would probably be tempted.
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I'd be like that was funny.
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I would have to.
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I might have to say that yeah, I mean I would.
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I thought it was funny too, Like when you told me the whole joke in context I was like, yeah, men do dream about their wedding night, like that's like what they look forward to.
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Ryan couldn't care less about the wedding day.
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Like he let me do whatever I wanted.
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He was like, oh, you want everything pink, don't care.
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Literally do whatever you want.
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And then I just care about the hotel room that night, and so it's like he was just.
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Yeah, so it's like it makes sense, but I think because he's a pastor and it was probably just a bit awkward of a joke for him to make, I don't, I mean, I think it was funny, but I could see why other people would think like oh, that's okay, yeah, okay good.
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What do you think, mo?
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What would you?
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I think so one is it a dirty joke?
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No, yeah, okay, good, what do you think, mo?
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What would you, I think, so one.
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Is it a dirty joke?
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No, it's a joke about sex, which I think is totally valid In the context of marriage, in the context of marriage Right.
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Is it a joke to make during a sermon?
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I would say absolutely not.
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If it's outside of a sermon, absolutely hilarious.
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But even within the joke itself, even if you think it's okay to make during a sermon, I think there's a lot of assumptions that go into the joke.
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One I don't like, because this is where I'm going to start criticizing one.
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I don't like that he said this is right before he told it.
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This is something that a mentor told me years ago and let me give you all some advice.
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So the second that you say it's advice, now it's.
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I get it.
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You're supposed to like extrapolate the truth within the joke yeah, yeah but then there is some advice within that right uh, so I think it's weird it just seems weird.
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So I think the assumptions that go into the joke are one only the lady cares about the wedding day, which, honestly, for lauren and I it was funny because like we got engaged, we're about to get married and she started to flip out about all the planning and all this and I like I don't know if I was supposed to do it, but I almost like threatened her.
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I was like if you start to freak out, we're going to go elope, and so from that moment onward she was just like all right, like I'm gonna chill out, and we and we enjoyed the process and it was, it was, it was mutual, we did it together.
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So I think the assumption that just the woman cares about the wedding day, it's an assumption, it's stereotypical.
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And just the man cares about the sex afterward, that's also an assumption.
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That's stereotypical, that's incorrect or should be incorrect.
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And then third one the assumption is both of y'all for that joke to work are virgins Right?
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How does a virgin man know what he wants?
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on his wedding night Right, right, right, oh, that's funny.
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So there are a lot of if you start to dig into the joke.
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I love how you literally broke every single part of that down.
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That was.
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Yeah, and I think because when I heard that joke I got the general, I didn't go, I didn't go, I just took okay, funny, ha got the gender, I didn't go?
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I didn't go, I just took okay funny.
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Haha, move on.
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But jokes are stereotypical, right, that's what makes them funny.
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If you're not stereotypical, they're funny like if a joke is neutral and understanding, then it's not a joke right, and if you put like 50 disclaimers on it, right then it doesn't.
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It's not funny, yeah, but instead if, if that was like john christ with a stand-up, stand-up joke, funny, oh, because he's a absolutely yeah exactly.
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So I I do think, okay, that's good, that was good perspective.
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So, yeah, I I think that.
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So then the apology.
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I don't know if you saw the apology, so the apology he and I don't want to say he plagiarized because I don't know, but it was almost a hundred percent exact with another mega church, mega church's pastor's apology.
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He said like, hey, I said a thing.
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And then I said, you know, careless words will be judged or whatever a proverb he said.
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And then he, then he go, the next part, it was exactly the same, next part was exactly the same.
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And so and I get it you want to make sure you're, you just screwed up and you want to go with an apology that works.
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So why not craft one from someone that already did it?
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Do you think he?
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thinks he screwed up like do you think he, like is taking full responsibility for it, or that he man that's to take responsibility?
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I wish I knew this is, you know, when you're in the.
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This is, as you know, as all of us right now are in a public space, right uh, with all of our tens of listeners out there.
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Um, we, we have a responsibility to these tens to kind of choose our words carefully.
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But I can say whatever I want.
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Right and you can't Right.
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That's true, that is true.
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So it's like and you've talked to me about this before because I get irritated with you when you kind of play neutral on things and I'm like just freaking, say what you think.
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Like, say your opinion.
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I know outside of this, I know what your opinion is, so just say it on this public platform.
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But you won't, because you are a pastor and you you are shepherding a flock of a ton of different people, and so it's like there are things you can't be super.
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What is the word polarized like?
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polarizing that's good, yeah, and like you can't like if I, if I gave my opinion about homeschool, yeah, now all of a sudden, everyone's like that it goes from me to that church, right yeah?
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if it's not biblical, like if it's not a theological issue, right then, it doesn't mean anything for you to take a stand.
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So, but it's like I can, because I'm not in a pastoral role, I'm not even in a ministry leadership role Like I'm.
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I'm just like I think I have said the wrong thing.
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I just, my platform is tens versus millions and so therefore, the, the, the, the backlash is way huger.
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So I do think huger, huger, I got some good vocab around her um, so I do think the apology, you know again, I don't know the context it is, elders say, hey, you need to apologize and it better be awesome.
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So we went and crafted one from um somebody, or it was like gosh that came off wrong.
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That's not the, that's not the.
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Look that point one.
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It just sucks Cause.
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Now he has to apologize about his apology.
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Right Like now yeah, now it's like okay, he stole some stuff.
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Yeah, it was weird.
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It was just weird across the board.
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I mean if it was a good apology of compare apologies across the board.
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Yeah, I think people just I mean, if it's me, I'm like just we're gonna move on.
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And yeah, he dug himself in a hole, and if you're that mad about it, then leave the church yeah, right, at first what he said was insensitive at best right, but now he straight up lied because or you're stealing right, so now it's like that there's no way around, like you can't play drag bro.
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I mean there's nothing new under the sun.
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I mean, you know, if you steal something like, you get a part of your sermon from what's his name Spurgeon, and then you get a part of your sermon from Tim Keller and a part of your sermon from Chuck Swindoll or a part of your, I don't know.
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I think you know you're you're going to over time.
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It all just meshes into one thing, all the stuff you learn.
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But I get it.
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It's hard to wrap your head around, but word for word, yeah, that's true.
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Written.
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Yeah, yeah, it's tough, okay, yeah, yeah.
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And I like, is he wouldn't care?
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No, he wouldn't, but he's great, like I.
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Honestly.
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They come in and think, yeah, I probably should listen to more uh because I heard him in person at exponentialonential last year and I was like like tears crying, just powerful, um, and I was like that guy can bring it and so I, I want to.
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I don't want to tear him down, uh, but the problem with doing things publicly is that you kind of set yourself up for people to talk about you publicly, and so here he is and and um, it's not like he didn't know.
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It's like when you're about to go on stage and say that you know that this might not unfold for you, bro.
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Right, it's not like there wasn't the feeling of like maybe this won't land right as soon as soon as you went did the joke he went back and he had this face up like this and he goes okay, acts one.
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So he knew like it's risky bro.
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Oh yeah, he took the risk like he didn't, he took the risk.
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I think if you wrote a joke like that down, I think you would know yeah, usually my jokes that come off that are like the one I said, that like I'm, you know, getting hard-hearted.
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That was total, oh my gosh, that one wasn't even on purpose.
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No, that was total, oh my gosh, that one wasn't even on purpose.
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No, that was not.
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After I said it I go, oh crud.
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And I just went and owned it.
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No, I was like yeah, no, I remember sitting there like did he just say that?
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And I go and I just was like keep moving.
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I was like does he realize that?
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that's what it yeah, I, as soon as it came out of my mouth, I go crud and I was like I'm just saying, because it was the play, it was the play-doh one, right yeah, oh, good the play-doh.
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It was the play-doh like where the play-doh got hard and I talked about pornography and then like they get soft and then, yeah, oh, I didn't.
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I didn't see that.
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I, after it came out of mouth and I looked at people looking back at me and I realized what happened and I just go, I'm just saying and I just pushed on.
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I thought it was hysterical.
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I was like okay.
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So yeah, I've been there.
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So I oh man, this is the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder.
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I, you know, I I probably have some, uh, katie sasses that would probably warn me.
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Don't say that, um, and you know it's going to, you're going to come off.
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Thankfully, in the past I've had women, as in preaching practice, at some point go.
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You know, you probably shouldn't say that.
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And I'm like, okay, yeah, cause I am preaching practice kind of, where I just let it go and just whatever comes out of my mouth comes out of my mouth, my mouth comes out of my mouth, and it's kind of fun, uh, and then I'm like, yeah, that would come off really bad and I'm sure Josh practices or whatever he does, but, um, maybe the you know, I don't know if he was in a, yes, culture.
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I don't think so at all, cause I think he's super humble Uh, but maybe they no one said anything cause I just thought it was funny.
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Yeah, anyway, are we going to?
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sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, I was just curious.
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Are we going to talk about the market?
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yeah, that's.
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We're going to move on.
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That one, um.
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But the question I want to answer do I think you did anything wrong?
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Wrong is such a?
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Is there anything neutral?
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Probably not, I don't know that.
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That's a hard one, wrong is a big label.
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It's a big label to throw yeah, I don't know if that's wrong, I think it's preference yeah, I think it's a discernment issue, like yeah it, he probably it's it's preaching style too.
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He's the type of preacher where for him, like that's the way that he preaches, probably, and for some other guys they separate their preaching from their joking like all together, yeah, and like there's almost never anything funny in their sermons and for them that probably wouldn't be in the context of their teaching.
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Right, right, and I obviously am probably the former where I love jokes in the sermon Right right, right and so because that's just my style and so I didn't have a problem with that Gosh, anyway, I hate to criticize him because, man, when you're preaching every week and you're trying to do the best you can, I don't think he's sitting there.
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I'm going to make women feel objectified, but he did plan it.
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I don't know.
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That's hard, but that's also our culture is like we take a two, three second clip of something and then we judge the whole entire thing, so it's like if people listen to the whole sermon, if they look at who he is as a person, it's like I'm sitting here looking at Google images of him and his family.
00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:47.488
And I'm like I I just think that listening to the full context of the sermon and not just taking out this like five second part of it.
00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:48.191
Yeah.
00:16:48.611 --> 00:16:49.475
If you were incomplete.
00:16:49.576 --> 00:16:52.104
Yeah, If you were at Lake Point church you would have loved.
00:16:52.104 --> 00:16:53.528
You would thought it was funny.
00:16:53.528 --> 00:16:59.408
You're probably like oh, that's just josh yeah but if you're not and you're in social media world, you're like what is wrong?
00:16:59.408 --> 00:17:00.774
That's why we hate christians.
00:17:00.774 --> 00:17:07.799
They're just blah, blah blah and now you're like you've now you don't want you may have put the unnecessary offense, there you go.
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.523
An unnecessary offense there's there's definitely things to be offensive about.
00:17:10.523 --> 00:17:13.428
Like, we want to talk and he has done a great job.
00:17:13.448 --> 00:17:16.992
I probably would have been offended that he didn't include women in being excited about the wedding.
00:17:17.032 --> 00:17:17.473
Like I.
00:17:18.820 --> 00:17:22.005
I probably would have been like what the heck dude I was excited about too.
00:17:22.105 --> 00:17:24.760
Okay, right, right, it's not just for him.
00:17:24.760 --> 00:17:26.182
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
00:17:26.182 --> 00:17:30.867
Uh, so, yeah, okay, I don't know where I was going to go beyond that.
00:17:30.867 --> 00:17:31.749
Yeah, do you think so?
00:17:31.749 --> 00:17:32.710
Should he apologize?
00:17:32.710 --> 00:17:36.094
I think the the apology.
00:17:37.635 --> 00:17:38.237
It was political.
00:17:39.381 --> 00:17:40.063
It was wise.
00:17:40.964 --> 00:17:43.291
Yeah, it was wise it.
00:17:45.204 --> 00:17:46.789
I don't think he should have apologized at all.
00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:47.211
Yeah.
00:17:48.500 --> 00:17:49.163
He just owned it.
00:17:49.625 --> 00:17:51.240
Yeah, that was for my, but.
00:17:51.260 --> 00:17:52.125
I'm also not a pastor.
00:17:52.125 --> 00:17:52.727
Yeah, I think.
00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:00.983
I think he should have said hey, that was for my church.
00:18:00.983 --> 00:18:01.887
And in context, I said this and and it there.
00:18:01.887 --> 00:18:08.061
If you, you could have taken it wrong like you know, not not the way Mo took it wrong, but if you analyze this and dug deep and said I was stereotypical, it was.
00:18:08.061 --> 00:18:09.301
That's why it's jokes are funny.
