Transcript
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor Plek, and I'm so glad all of you are joining us.
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This is recording live here in Austin, texas, and joining me today is none other than Haley Hanks, our counselor.
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That we get the privilege of using her for her internship hours Is that the best way to put that?
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Yep Sounds about right and she has been crushing and killing it in the most positive way possible with helping people at our church really take the next step in the relationship with God and also helping them take emotional steps to really bring wholeness.
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Would that be a good way to put that?
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I think that's a great way to put that.
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So talk to me about really one of the things.
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Let's just as a counselor like you're as a counselor intern.
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I know it's very important to Counselor in training In training Counselor intern.
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And so tell me about really what you feel like is one of the primary things in general.
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I don't want to get any specifics here, but in general people are facing right now.
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A lot of anxiety, anxiety.
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That might be the number one thing.
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Really A lot of anxiety.
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That might be the number one thing Really Now.
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Is it anxiety about like finances, relationships or just kind of just the general.
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I mean both of what you just said and I think just a lot of just kind of like widespread, just generalized chronic anxiety, chronic anxiety, chronic anxiety I think that was probably just the number one thing.
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Yeah.
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So Jesus says do not be anxious, or actually Paul wrote that Don't be anxious about anything, but in everything rejoice.
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So it's just sort of like wow, bring all your struggles and everything to God and he's going to give you a peace that surpasses all understanding.
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I have that tattooed on my arm.
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Actually Be anxious for nothing, what?
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Okay.
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So in your own journey, how have you been able to combat anxiousness and what's really the piece, or how are you able to get people from anxiety Like they know the answer is God.
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Like you're not.
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For the most part, you're not dealing with people that have, like no concept of God.
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You're dealing with people who are Christian, who love Jesus, but the anxiety still traps them.
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So how did you personally deal with anxiety?
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And then what's the sort of strategy you kind of help other people take?
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well for me personally.
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I definitely anxiety was kind of a big thing for me for a lot of years.
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Not like I ever was officially diagnosed with anxiety and I've never had to take medication for anxiety or anything like that, but just I always um.
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As a kid I remember always feeling very anxious about something bad happening to my mom or dad.
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That was like a huge thing for me.
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I was always so worried that they were going to get in a car accident or that they were Like how old were you?
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in that.
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I mean well, I don't know, Not by the time I was a teenager, but I feel like most of my childhood, elementary age years.
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Yeah, maybe even middle school a little bit too, and then, like, once I got married, I feel like I took all that exact same anxiety and it kind of transferred onto my husband.
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I was always very anxious about something bad happening to him, or you know, him like leaving, like different things like that and and actually it would drive him crazy, which I get.
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And then it kind of transferred onto my kids, like it's almost like I kept replacing whoever was, like I replaced my parents with my spouse.
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As far as who my anxiety was going to focus upon and then onto my kids, but then, like I wish I had some really kind of pivotal story to tell or something that was hugely helpful.
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But and not that I don't ever I do still sometimes struggle with anxiety.
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I think everyone does sometimes.
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So I don't want to act like I'm just in perfect peace at all times now, but I would not say it's like a huge struggle anymore and I don't know if it's just.
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I mean, I'm sure to some extent it's just.
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You know, like I've taken it to God a million times over the years and so I'm sure there is growth and God healing me in that area.
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Honestly, some of the things that I had felt worried about happened and I think there is something to be said for realizing that sometimes things are worse when you visualize and you think about what if, what if, what if, and then sometimes, when the what if happens, you're like okay, well, that does in fact suck, but I'm actually okay and I can, I can.
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That's not the ideal scenario, what just happened, but it didn't kill me either and I'm okay.
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Do you ever see in that like worry, almost self-fulfilling prophecies, like where people worry about something happened that they almost force it to happen?
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Is that I?
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cannot decide how I feel about that.
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Honestly, I know some people think that, uh, I don't know.
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I think I would more say I don't think that's a thing, okay, okay, but I don't know, because I would say that most people worry about stuff that never comes to fruition, for sure um, but I guess it is possible that you could worry something so much that you make it happen like yeah, which is like a wild sort of thought, like I'm so worried that someone's going to leave me, and then I put on them you're going to leave me, you're going to leave me, and eventually they're like I'm out like I can't handle that well.
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That you're, you're right.
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So, yes, I think there are certain situations where that is the case, whereby you're constant worrying, and then maybe the ways that changes you by being like a constantly anxious person and what that does to you.
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Maybe that then affects yeah other things that.
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And then it's like a cycle, that kind of like a however, you just worded it self yes, self-fulfilling prophecy.
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It's like yeah like, uh, I'm never gonna have any friends, I'm always gonna be lonely be lonely I'm always going to be single and so therefore, you almost um, and if I'm just going to the single realm, it's like I then take people out of my life that would have the potential to bring a spouse or whatever, because I'm like I know it's not going to work out.
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Yeah, I mean kind of different from that but kind of similar.
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So a little counselor talk for a second yeah, here we go In the world of counsel.
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Well you know, different counselors have different what we call theoretical orientations or different approaches to counseling, and so some counselors, which I am one, lean into like cognitive behavioral therapy.
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You have to explain that for all of us.
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I will.
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But then there's, you know, a million other theories and a million other approaches that people have, but with cognitive behavioral therapy you're really looking for.
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Like everyone, deep inside of you you have core beliefs that are usually formed by the time you're like seven or eight years old.
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And they're formed from.
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You know all kinds of the way your parents raised you, experiences that happened to you when you're little, just all kinds of things, but they're usually pretty like situated in you by the time you're like seven or eight.
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And there are these core beliefs about yourself, about just how the world works, about other people, and most people are not even aware or can't articulate what these core beliefs are, and there could be positive ones too, but the negative ones that are kind of common for a lot of people are I'm worthless, I'm I'm worthless, I'm unlovable, um, I, uh, I'm helpless, I'm powerless.
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Like that's a huge one that people don't realize that deep down they have this belief that they're powerless.
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Um, I mean, there's a ton, it could be anything, but those are some common ones that seem to come up a lot in counseling.
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And once you have that core belief which, by the way, these core beliefs influence your thoughts a ton.
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So the core beliefs are the most like deeply deep down buried thing, and then those influence your thoughts and their thoughts go on to influence your emotions and then your actions.
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So a huge part of changing someone's emotions and actions is figuring out well, what are you thinking?
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And then, okay, why are you thinking that?
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What are you believing about yourself, or what are you believing about the world?
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And so, with the self-fulfilling prophecy thing, sometimes people have, let's just say, the core belief is I'm unlovable.
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Well then, because they so deeply believe this at such a deep down core level, they believe this to be true I'm unlovable.
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So then, as things happen to them in life good or bad, it's all filtered through I'm unlovable.
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And so when things happen that actually might make it seem as though they are lovable, they tend to disregard that.
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Right, that doesn't fit with they reinforce the bias.
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Yeah, like they're not even paying attention to all the things that might be saying you are lovable, this person loves you or this indicates that you're lovable.
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They just scrap those, but instead they're focusing on all the evidences that, yep, just like I thought I'm not lovable, this person broke up with me.
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That just enforces what I already believe to be true.
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So it's a little bit different than self-fulfilling prophecy, but um, no, I think it kind of goes in the same world All right.
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So I'm just thinking of my own kids now, when you can counsel me on how I've parented, uh, but like uh, you know, my, my oldest, he kind of he he'll run with a like very healthy perspective, um, high resiliency to disappointment.
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Obviously there were were times of crushing anxiety, of like I'm not going to be able to do this thing, but now he's 11.
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Through prayer, through like I don't know if I can play this game, I don't know if I can lose.
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It's going to be so bad.
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We've been able to walk through that and I'm watching.
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My second son doesn't have quite the same resiliency.
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And when I think about core, beliefs I think that's where in my parenting strategy at the time I was really getting into discipline of my first son.
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I should have probably been thinking of like the more compassion side of really nurturing my second son, but he kind of got the discipline aspect because, that's what the first kid was getting, and he didn't get a lot of the you're loved, you're loved, you're loved, you're the best, you're the greatest, you're the best.
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And so I'm having to kind of go back now and just reinforce the compassion nurturing aspect of things, because I think we hammered on the discipline side, because we were like, oh no, this kid is just too spoiled, the one's too spoiled.
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We got to make sure we get right, you kind of swing back and forth.
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Yeah, I don't know if you've experienced any of that with your own kids and you're just like, ah, I'm a terrible parent, yeah, um, and so I'm now like as I'm, as I have to kind of go through.
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What are your core beliefs?
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Um, my older son kind of like thinks everyone else is stupid and they don't know anything, and that's like like he's great, yeah, whereas my second it's like everybody hates me.
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Right.
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And so that's.
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Oh, I'm having to kind of one humble this one, my older one, and then my second son.
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I'm trying to get him to understand that those are not true.
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Right.
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And probably I've given that sort of belief to you and I have to sort of apologize and sort of work through that and kind of help them with that?
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Have you what is what is a good way?
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Like cause, I think, parents, as they're going through parenting, so you can just tell me you sort of realize you've, you've, you've created in your child some anxiety, uh, that maybe you even had and it's like and I've just passed that on to you Congratulations.
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Right Like how do you?
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parent through some of that to kind of get them to a place of wholeness, healthy.
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You know rowdy.
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So are we talking about just anxiety, or are you talking about just?
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negative core beliefs in general, negative core beliefs which I think feed into the anxiety.
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Yeah, Well, for one thing, I was going to say I don't know if this is answering your question, but I just remembered this and think it's important for people to know.
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So if you're not going to see a counselor, sometimes it can be hard to even know what your core beliefs are.
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A counselor is hopefully trained in kind of pulling that out, but if you don't have a counselor, you might be like, well, I don't even know what my core beliefs are.
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And one good way, and I'll tell a little story about myself which, if I was counseling, this would be a no-no, because in the counseling world you're not supposed to disclose anything about yourself to that, because it draws the person too close to you well, that could be one thing, but also, you don't ever want to put the client in a position where they feel like they have to console you, right where they feel like, oh gosh, I was going to tell them about this, but now I'm worried that it's going to trigger something, trigger them, and so you don't want that, and so I'm not really supposed to talk about myself when I'm counseling, but I'm not counseling, right now.
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And so I'll tell the story just because I think it could maybe help someone figure out what their core belief is.
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And also I will say, if I wasn't currently in school learning about all of this stuff, I don't think I would have connected what I'm about to tell you with oh, this might be a core belief of mine but because it's like at the forefront of my mind all the time.
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I'm on the lookout for this kind of a thing.
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But if you remember, a few months ago I was here leading a um like a group counseling session and I had an appointment like right when this finished over in cedar park so I needed to leave like the second.
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The hour was up, well, and it was a great thing, but at the hour mark, like the conversation was actually really good and the women were still talking and it was not coming to any kind of an end point, and I was kind of sweating on the inside because I'm like I've got to get to Cedar Park, I'm going to be late for this appointment, but I also don't want to just awkwardly interrupt this great conversation.
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And so I'm kind of figuring out what do I do?
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And so, finally, I just was like guys, I'm so sorry to interrupt, I've got to go, I have another appointment to get to.
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And I interrupted the conversation, which they were gracious about.
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But as I'm like gathering my things and I'm like rushing, I just for some reason felt completely awkward.
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I felt so awkward that I'm like interrupting the conversation, I'm leaving in the middle of this session, I'm like gathering my things while they're still talking.
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And so, as I'm walking to my car, a thought pops in my head and it was like oh my gosh, why are you always such an awkward person?
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Like that pops into my head right.
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Well, I bet any of us I'm sure you too like all throughout the day, thoughts, and again in the cognitive behavioral therapy world those are called automatic thoughts these thoughts that just pop in your head.
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So for me it was oh my gosh, why am I such an awkward person?
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Well, as I start kind of applying all the things I'm learning right now, I'm like, oh, that's an automatic thought I just had.
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What does that mean about myself?
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The fact that the thing that pops in my head is I'm an awkward person?
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Well, as I kind of like trace it down, I think probably for me, a core belief I have is like and I'm not, I'm like I'm fine.
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I'm not like crying over this or needing anyone to console me, but I think, if I'm really examining myself, a core belief is like something is kind of wrong with me.
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Like.
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I'm slightly awkward.
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I'm slightly, not quite as together as other people or something.
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So that's like a core belief.
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But I identified that by like what are the automatic thoughts that pop in my head?
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And a lot of times it's oh my gosh, you're so awkward.
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Oh my gosh, I'm sure they thought that was so weird my head.
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And a lot of times it's oh my gosh, you're so awkward.
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Oh my gosh, I'm sure they thought that was so weird.
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Um, but does this make sense, okay, so for a person that's trying to figure out what is my core belief, like, one thing that you can do is be very aware of these automatic thoughts that pop into your head throughout the day.
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That's good man.
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I'm like now.
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I'm like now.
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I'm like what are my core beliefs?
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Um, yeah, so walk me through it, cause I would love to like, yeah, so like with this situation, which I didn't again like I'm.
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I'm just trying to provide an example.
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I didn't like go home and like cry over this or anything or feel you know terrible about myself, but uh like.
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So if I was trying to figure out what's my core belief, based on that automatic thought, I could do something like oh my gosh.
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So my thought again was oh my gosh, why am I always so awkward?
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Well then I could have asked myself well, what makes me think I'm awkward?
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Well, I feel like those girls looked at me weird when I had to get up and leave.
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Well, what if they did?
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What does that mean about me?
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If the girls looked at me weird?
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What does that mean about me?
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Well, I don't know.
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I guess maybe it means I'm kind of a weird person.
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Well, what if that's true?
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What if I'm kind of a weird person?
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Well then that means, like, something's wrong with me.
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I'm not supposed to be a weird person, I'm supposed to be a normal person.
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And so you've kind of arrived at the core belief of well, I guess something is wrong with me right so you kind of keep asking the question well, what would that mean If that was true?
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if that thought is true, what would that mean?
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Okay, well, if that's true, what does that mean about yourself?
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Yeah, man, that's, that's awesome.
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I think a couple, like, as you're sharing that, a couple of thoughts just popped in my head, because I know I have no need to console you so I can uh, is I, was it reminded me of, like, when I was in the army and guys were not?
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I mean, we went through a hard year in combat and so I remember, like one conversation, I think it came out, where I didn't think my lieutenants thought I was a very good leader and I go, you guys probably think I'm not.
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You know, I kind of just said that you guys don't think I'm that good or whatever.
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I'm sorry I failed you, or so you're not that bad.
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You know it was a weird, it was funny how I just sort of assumed I'm the worst at that and I think that translates into pastoring of.
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Like you know, I'll hear.
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The only things you hear or remember are all the times people criticize you.
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Right that sermon's not, I'm just not getting fed.
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That sermon's boring, that was whatever, whatever.
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And then you're like I think you can kind of bias toward those things, as opposed to a gazillion people that are still here and haven't left Well, not even to mention.
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people are usually more vocal with their complaints than with their praises.
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So the people that speak up or write in are usually the ones with a problem.
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And so you can kind of spiral on the negativity and be like I guess that's who I really am.
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And then so the question you asked what does that mean?
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Yeah, so, if that were true, what does that mean?
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It was like yeah.
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So if that were true, what would that mean about me?
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So okay, so that, if that were true, what would that mean about me?
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I would say, well, I guess our church is never going to grow.
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Yeah, and then if our church is never going to grow then what does that mean about you?
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Yeah?
00:17:04.577 --> 00:17:15.544
I'm a I'm a bad pastor, and eventually I'm going to be not be able to leave my family because everyone's going to leave, and so I'll just be homeless with a family of six and we'll have to figure out where we're going to live on I-35.
00:17:15.865 --> 00:17:18.278
And then, if that happened, what does that mean about you?
00:17:18.317 --> 00:17:19.506
Well then, it means I'm worthless.
00:17:19.506 --> 00:17:20.613
I'm worthless, I've done nothing.
00:17:20.653 --> 00:17:22.536
I haven't contributed to my church or to my family.
00:17:22.576 --> 00:17:23.497
I'm worthless, I'm not.
00:17:23.497 --> 00:17:25.999
Yeah, I have no value, right, I have no value.
00:17:26.019 --> 00:17:41.250
I'm worthless, and so but back to this self-fulf thing the problem with these automatic thoughts and then the core beliefs is that if I believed, if my core belief is well, there's something wrong with me or if your core belief was I'm worthless and I have no value.
00:17:41.250 --> 00:17:43.652
Well then, you're going to start acting that way.
00:17:43.652 --> 00:17:58.175
If you have convinced yourself I'm worthless, I have no value, then you're going to probably be like and so therefore I'm not even going to attempt to lead this, this church, or I'm not going to even so then your behavior starts being altered because of this thing that you believe about yourself.
00:17:58.297 --> 00:18:01.723
So let's talk about people who are conflict resistant.
00:18:02.164 --> 00:18:03.007
Conflict avoidant.
00:18:03.027 --> 00:18:05.481
Yeah, that's the word, so conflict avoidance.
00:18:05.481 --> 00:18:11.038
So I would say that when you're conflict avoidant, you're afraid of being rejected.
00:18:11.038 --> 00:18:12.580
Would that be the normal thing?
00:18:12.580 --> 00:18:17.028
So if I have this hard conversation with this person, I'm ultimately going to be rejected.
00:18:17.028 --> 00:18:19.762
If I'm rejected, that means I'm going to be abandoned.
00:18:19.762 --> 00:18:24.124
If I'm abandoned, I'm going to be alone and I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.
00:18:24.826 --> 00:18:45.247
I think it's a genuine fear producing anxiety, which people go to, and that they go all the way to the extreme and they don't give the other person enough credit to say that they are a functional person that can probably have a conversation and not just um, completely you know right, write you off yeah.
00:18:46.297 --> 00:19:00.181
And maybe in our culture of I don't know, I don't say social media culture, where you do write off people all the time, and maybe we've been writing people off in our heads for so long that we just assume everyone wants to write us off as well.
00:19:00.181 --> 00:19:01.144
Do you see that?
00:19:01.785 --> 00:19:02.968
Yeah, well, like what you're saying.
00:19:02.968 --> 00:19:06.925
Yeah, in the social media world, it's very easy to just like unfriend, unfollow.
00:19:06.945 --> 00:19:07.406
I'm done.
00:19:07.406 --> 00:19:08.455
I'm done, I'm out.
00:19:08.455 --> 00:19:09.337
Okay, I'm blocking you.
00:19:09.498 --> 00:19:15.528
Yeah, this conversation has gotten too hard or too annoying, and so therefore I'm out or you're out, blocking you.
00:19:16.068 --> 00:19:16.630
Right, so how?
00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:17.136
So?
00:19:17.136 --> 00:19:22.901
I guess the question would be like let's, let's tell you our conflict avoidant people, um which I think there's a high number of those.
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:24.365
I mean I am, if I'm being honest.
00:19:24.365 --> 00:19:27.398
I am a conflict avoidant person.
00:19:27.398 --> 00:19:28.681
I don't know how familiar you.
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.205
She's ridiculous, I know, but give me, I think, let me see if I can play this game.
00:19:32.205 --> 00:19:32.846
Go ahead, what number?
00:19:32.866 --> 00:19:33.007
are you?
00:19:33.007 --> 00:19:33.667
Well, I'm a nine.
00:19:33.768 --> 00:19:35.530
You're not a peacemaker, peace maker.
00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:37.519
Yes, I'm guessing that you're probably going to eight.
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.484
No, I'm not, I'm a seven.
00:19:39.726 --> 00:19:47.518
Okay, I was going to say an eight with a seven.
00:19:47.518 --> 00:19:48.439
I flatten the hierarchy.
00:19:48.499 --> 00:19:49.499
That's my big problem.
00:19:49.499 --> 00:19:54.681
They get totally offended by like oh wait, I thought we were friends and I'm like but you have to work for me, Right?
00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:54.921
But?
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.482
I am your boss, so are you a seven with an eight wing?
00:19:57.583 --> 00:20:00.523
Yes, Okay, but I was raised by threes.
00:20:00.723 --> 00:20:01.003
Yeah.
