Transcript
WEBVTT
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
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I'm your host with pat.
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I'm your host, pastor plec, and with me in studio is none other than one other than holland greg.
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Welcome home thank you yeah, pastor at east side community church, just an amazing man of god.
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And uh, then also we have kayla rider.
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I'm so glad you're here I'm glad to be here.
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Kayla, like when you texted the other day and you said, hey, I really feel I got a need, I got to get back on the show, I was like, what more could you say Because you've been through it For those catching a lot of, you up Kayla's story.
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You know.
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He started out at our church at least where I started with him in in about 2012, 2014.
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He uh was just a kid in the youth group and then eventually went to college, got involved in a gay lifestyle and, uh, then, uh, through meeting james foster uh, one of our pastors like repented, got baptized here, and then I think that's at one point he came to my men's group, said I'm a gay christian.
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I was like, ah, let's call you, not that.
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And so then, uh, we went and we talked about like repentance and what that looked like, and then you went off to germany for a while, then you came back and then, throughout that story, eventually you got engaged to a man.
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But then jesus met you in a dream and then, you and said you, which life do you want, one in hell or one with me?
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And you chose Jesus, broke up with your dude fiance and then you've been celibate, or trying to.
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Well, you've committed to a life of celibacy ever since, and then you've been wanting to kind of step into ministry, and so that's kind of where we were.
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You made all these huge changes in your life.
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You're moving towards progressively sanctification.
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You're grown with Jesus and then recently things took a little bit of a downturn.
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Maybe when were we at?
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Oh yeah, it definitely took a huge turn.
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Okay, so with my old job as an IT specialist, I traveled the country for clients, um, and so my last trip I really fell off the wagon, spiritually, um just so so we each had our own room and for me it was like easy access to porn, you know, and it's like I could lock the door and it's like wow, um, and so that last trip it came like that was the open door of this floodgate of all the sin.
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Um, and yeah, let's just say, the past few months spent over three thousand dollars on only fans so what is only fans for?
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those are the people who don't know what only fans is well, so it's a variety, so it's not just explicit content.
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There are creators that actually use it for like non-explicit things right.
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I think the original intent I thought was there's like physical fitness people doing like workouts or something, and then yeah, but then that's where it's like oh, we have more free reign, because no one can really tell us what we can and cannot pose.
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So yeah, so it became a place of porn.
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Yeah, okay, so you got an.
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Only fans spent three grand on only fans.
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Yeah, that's a lot of money uh, oh yeah, okay, and then what did that preclude you from doing?
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um, well, earlier this year I applied for a mission trip through my school, um, and so I made the first payment, the down payment, and so the money that I got from the refund was gonna go for that mission trip.
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Well, that didn't work out.
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And was this money that was given to you or just money you saved up this?
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was money that I got from the government.
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Oh okay, yeah, my FAFSA yeah, oh wow.
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So you sort of hey, I'm going to use this for missions, and then you're like I'll use it for OnlyFans.
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Yeah.
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That's tough, oh yeah.
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And and then you're like I use it for OnlyFans.
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Yeah, that's tough, oh yeah.
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And so, going through this, like, was there ever a point somebody was asking you like, hey, how was that business trip to Toledo or wherever you were?
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Yeah, completely different.
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No, no, no.
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Like whenever, you did your IT trip.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like it was the same way.
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I'm going like so how'd that trip go?
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Did you have like an accountability system built in or Not?
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Really, yeah, how, because I think that would be the part where I'd say man, I think that's essential for a young man, any person, really I need that, so like if someone's not asking me weekly like, hey, have you had any sexual thoughts?
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Because it's not just like looking at porn, like that are.
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You know that are inappropriate sexual thoughts, that would be helpful.
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I think yeah.
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And so I think you know, just pastorally, I like I hear that and I go oh man that's so hard.
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What Kaler needs is some guys in his life that he's close enough to they're going to go like so what's going on in your life that he's close enough to they're going to go like?
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So what's going on in your life?
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Yeah, I, for me, it's more so.
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It's like I need that community.
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That's going to hear me, you know.
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And it's like what do you mean by that?
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Well, it's like when I confide in people, like when, when people confide in me, I get down on their level, I get where they're at and I let them be vulnerable, but then also, once they, once I see that they're comfortable and like getting better emotionally, like that's when I provide, like the advice, the tough love, the reality check in a sense you know, because I feel like everybody deserves to be able to voice what they're feeling without any retribution, and so I only have very selective few, and I didn't really want to speak to my mom about this thing.
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Yeah.
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Sorry, mom.
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That's kind of a normal thing.
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And so I really didn't have anybody that would just sit.
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Let me be vulnerable and actually listen, because it's like everybody sees me I'm always happy.
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I was like, well, I've always portrayed that it's like the biggest smile you see on.
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People may have the darkest secrets.
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Yeah, you know, whether you want to take the time to penetrate that wall, then you're not going to know what's going on, and so I don't like to portray that I have this thick wall on me, you know.
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But it's one of those things that's like I need that community, because when I have a community that I like fully trust, that's where that was like I don't need a, a mask on me.
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You know I could be like I'm not okay but, I will be you know, yeah, I love that.
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I love that saying it's it's okay to not be okay, it's not okay to stay that way.
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I think that's super hard.
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So, um, holland, if you ever and I know this is probably something that every pastor deals with, but I'd love to hear your perspective like what do you think the barrier is and I know we'll ask kayla here in a second, but what do you think the barrier is for men being vulnerable?
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yeah, I think I can speak, even just for myself.
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I feel that I think there's a pressure to be okay and, you know, to have it together to have an answer.
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You know, I want to be the leader, the example, the teacher, the one who you know, knows what's up, and is doing the right thing, and I think there's something really good about that, about I want to be walking with God.
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I want to be someone that others can imitate and follow.
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But reality is we all stumble, we all sin.
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But if we admit that, then the fear is like oh now no one's going to respect me, no one's going to think I'm the real deal, no one's going to look to me for advice or counsel.
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They're going to think less of me or something like that.
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And so I think there's this pressure of like.
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In order to be who I want to be, I can only present myself my strengths.
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I can't, I can't let people see my weaknesses or they're not going to trust respect, or you know, what do you think Is that?
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is that it?
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Yeah, I you kind of spot on um, I guess, like in my stance, is like I didn't have a dad growing up, so it's like I was.
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I'm more emotional you know, and so when it comes to like now I have a thick skin, um, but like back then I was like I was a very sensitive person I still am, you know, but it I had to go through a lot of dark experiences to get my backs like my backbone you know, and yeah, not I.
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I applaud for those who don't have to go through that.
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You know I don't wish anybody to go through dark experiences to get to gain something like that, um, but I know in my experiences that when I would see like family members or even friends, I always had to remember I have to be strong for them because they need someone to lean their shoulders on, you know, and for me, recognizing and like where my faith is at right now and I'm recognizing that I can cry, you know I don't have to be happy all the time, you know.
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Did you feel a pressure to be happy all the time?
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I felt like it because it's like that's how I move forward, you know it's like I laugh at myself, move forward.
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You know it's like I laugh at myself and for me, like and I've told you this on previous times you know, in college, my darkest times, I would resort to cutting depression, suicide attempts.
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You know.
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So, with me laughing at myself, that was a way for me to cope you know, it's like I don't like playing, that I'm a human card Cause it's like that's stupid.
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I think that's a stupid thing to blame.
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It was like, yes, you're human, but it's like, come on, dude, that thing's really old, um, and so it's time to take action for your like.
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You have to take responsibility for your actions.
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So so, how?
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So how do you?
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How did you deal?
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I love what you say is that you moved forward.
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How did you move forward?
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Well, I actually saw it.
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I found another church and I'm like, oh, can I have more than one church family?
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And I'm like, oh, wait, yeah.
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So I kind of laughed.
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I was like, okay, what you found, so hold on.
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This is the part that.
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So you're at Gateway, yeah, and then you found a different church other than gateway no, so it's gonna be a separate it's the second one um, so at a gateway event for all men, yeah, this, this pastor who at red rocks, yeah, um, he's a single man and the pastor's a single guy and he's not looking for marriage.
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Um, but I love like how he's like I don't't know, for me it's just like how he taught the Bible and it's like you got to take responsibility for it.
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He's a committed celibate, single dude.
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Yes, and for me that speaks volumes, because everybody's like, oh, we found the perfect woman for you.
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And he's like, okay, thanks, but no, you know.
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Yeah like okay, thanks, but no, you know.
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So for me, like, that is that type of model that I want to exhibit in my life, because like well, I don't want to date men anymore.
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You know, and so until God thinks I'm ready, I'm just going to try to stay celibate, you know.
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And so having that type of model and a pastor speaks volumes for me.
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So this is the part that might be the rebuke part.
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But, like, are you going to to red rocks and be with that guy?
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because I think that would be awesome connection yeah, no, um, so my plan is to do both.
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I do believe that both churches, like I've done research on their doctrines and I absolutely agree with both.
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I do think gateway and I like what you said.
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It's like a gateway drug for like new beginners.
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Um, and so I do like the.
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I probably said for red rocks too.
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but yeah, go ahead, I do like how gateway has a lot of resources, um, and right now I'm actually entering the heel ministry for my finances and my sexual sin.
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Yeah, but with Red Rocks I can connect more with people my own age, whereas gateway, of course, there's a 20s and 30s that I'm in, but, like there's a lot more Gen Z men and feet women yeah, at Red.
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Rocks.
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So I guess the only here's my like, because I think so.
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We send people to reach in at City View and I think that's totally okay.
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It's just really the place when are you, you know what, and I'm not sure if they're elder-led, but what group of men or what elder is kind of like caring for your soul.
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I think that's the thing that becomes like someone knows I'm responsible for Kaler and I think the challenge for most people this isn't just you is they don't want to submit themselves to anyone, so they go everywhere and say I go to church everywhere.
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And so when you're a church, at every church, you're a member of no church, and I think that's the struggle, because the people at Red Rocks don't know.
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If they don't know that they're supposed to be caring for you, they don't know to go and ask you those hard questions At Gateway.
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If they don't know that you're part of their thing, they don't know to go ask you those hard questions.
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I think that's the part.
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So cause I think you know going and visiting other churches for their, you know, whatever specific ministry, I think that's that's totally encouraged.
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I think being a part of a local church, though, it becomes super valuable and important for this specific reason.
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Someone to come and say, Kaler, I haven't seen you, Cause were you going to church during that time?
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Or like when you were going to have the OnlyFans spree?
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Yeah, I was at Gateway, All right.
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So you're at the church.
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You're doing the thing.
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Yeah, joe, go ahead.
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Yeah, I'm just curious.
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So, like going to church, I mean, I haven't seen you in a decade, you know, and so just hearing some of this I'm not up to speed as much.
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But when you say you were going to church, does that mean attending Sunday services and that's all?
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Or does that mean, like no, I'm there's, I have community there, where people know me, we're, we're involved, like what is?
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What does it mean?
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I'm actually involved.
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Um so I'm involved in a couple of groups um, but I'm also serving as well Um and I'm taking classes, like courses like to help me grow.
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Like you're cause you want to go into ministry, yeah.
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Yeah, so Sundays and throughout the week, what?
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Once a week, or a couple of times a week?
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Maybe like three, four times a week.
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That's a lot.
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Yeah, it's very involved.
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And so in that time, you know, during this three months, uh, are there people who are like checking in with you, hey, how's your walk with Jesus?
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And you're just not telling them or it or were you just kind of keeping your distance?
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And no one's really like.
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You can be um a mile wide and an inch deep, right, you can go.
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I'm there four days a week and I go to two different services and I serve, but no one really knows me, wow.
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Well, so to piggyback off of that question, which is really good, um, so I do have people who reach out to me that I do confide in.
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Um, I, actually one of the guys that I reach out to is actually a mentor of mine, um, and so right now he's on sabbatical in Europe, so it's like oh, well, he's out.
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Yeah, you know, um, and so I think it's the idea of like, if I text somebody and they don't respond to me real quick, then it's like all right, they're busy, or it's like I need to give them more space.
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Cause I do text quite a lot um to where it's overwhelming to people, Um, and so that's where I've told people if you don't want to text me, just end it, or just give me the thumbs up and I'll end it there you know but it's like so, there are people.
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I think it's more so.
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It's like I need to be comfortable with myself, like openly sharing it with, with them, but also more than them you know Um like.
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Like I said earlier, I was like I'm going to go into the heel ministry for it you know, and that's where, for me, I feel like it's a good step into sharing and being openly.
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Yeah, I think you're going to get a lot more out of that, because you're coming in there saying, hey, I have an issue as opposed to the other place saying like, not saying that you ever would say this, but in general, when no one says like, if you're serving at like a I don't know a Bible study, set up and tear down, or like you know there's a young adult group, whatever, no one's asking that unless you're explicitly asking someone to ask you, and that's where I think the HEAL ministry would probably be a big win.
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So, when it comes to Red Rocks, like, do you like?
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I guess it's like do you just appreciate that pastor, or is that?
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Does that pastor and you like have a relationship where he goes like so tell me about, uh, how you're overcoming the loneliness, or is he have like a time to meet with you regularly, or is it just something like man, I just love that way that guy preaches because I can identify with that well, when we did that men's group at gateway, he had a book that he wrote single today yeah and how he entered, like how he he brought scripture and the culture together, but it was very smooth, I guess.
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So I reached out to him because I read his book and it was like wow, he was dealing with so much even as a young pastor, single, that wasn't even actively looking for a wife.
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So I think it was more.
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So it was like one.
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I wanted to get his intake and like kind of share my story with him and let him know.
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It was like his story inspired me, you know, and it's encouraging.
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So it wasn't necessarily like a I'm going to your church.
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Now it's more like hey, that was awesome, thank you for doing that.
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Yeah.
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And I'm heading back to gateway.
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Yeah, yeah, that's good.
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I think that's super encouraging.
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Especially when someone shares something so powerful, it's so good to let them know how much it impacted you.
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Okay, so you're at Gateway, you're taking the next step, moving forward with Heal Ministry.
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I think one of the things that, at least here at Wells Branch, one of the things that we try and do is, whenever the confession or repentance of sin is like one of the things that we sort of anchor a lot of our ministry around, because usually when people confess sin, everyone sort of stares at their shoes and goes, oh man, that's really bad, I'm so sorry that happened.
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And then they go what's the next guy going to confess?
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And they kind of like they leave it at the confession, and I think that, and I'm not saying people are doing it wrong.
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However, it can become problematic if it just becomes like yeah, me too, me too, me too, and so everybody has the same thing.
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And so again, if everybody's sinning, you're confessing it, but there's no steps for repentance.
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And the one step of repentance that James 5.16 lays out is confess your sins one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed, and for us specifically, that's where, like you would confess that, and then I would pray, I would say, god, thank you so much for Kaler's confession.
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His sin of lust deserves hell.
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It is that bad, jesus.
00:18:53.087 --> 00:18:54.632
You died on the cross for that lust.
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You took it straight to hell.
00:18:55.921 --> 00:18:57.242
You rose from the dead Lord in died on the cross for that lust.
00:18:57.242 --> 00:18:57.903
You took it straight to hell.
00:18:57.903 --> 00:19:00.607
You rose from the dead Lord in that same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in Caler.
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Holy Spirit, would you empower Caler to move forward in freedom and that he would feel no condemnation?
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In Jesus' name, amen.
00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:22.259
And what that does, what that does is it allows you to kind of feel the full weight of your sin, as opposed to just saying you know, getting it off your chest, but not dealing with it in a real spiritual and I don't want to call it transactional.
00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:32.756
The transaction is Jesus gives you grace and takes your sin, takes it to hell, gives you Holy Spirit power and then says there's no condemnation on you.
00:19:32.756 --> 00:19:39.046
So I think you're walking around with a lot of condemnation, which is why you don't want to confess it to people.
00:19:39.046 --> 00:19:46.393
You're walking around feeling the weight of shame and that's what prevents us from confessing sin.
00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:54.354
And to that point, I feel like the culture we live in is a very therapeutic type culture.
00:19:54.354 --> 00:19:57.308
The answer, the solution to that is you know, people go.
00:19:57.308 --> 00:20:00.720
We don't want to see people walking around with shame and guilt, and so here's what we're going to do.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:12.421
We're going to say it's okay, right, you're okay, it's not that bad, you're not that bad, you're, you are enough you know you're a good, rather than saying that yeah, what Chris just said.
00:20:12.441 --> 00:20:31.934
You know that deserved hell and I deserve hell and like our sin is actually like you know this horrible thing, but that Jesus paid for it and so justice was done and condemnation was done, and so it's not just like, hey, you're okay, it's yeah, praise the Lord, you're free because Jesus died for you.
00:20:31.934 --> 00:20:33.749
You're free from you know.
00:20:33.749 --> 00:20:35.473
That's so much better.
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You're forgiven and free.
00:20:36.817 --> 00:20:38.490
That's so much better than it's okay.
00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:40.789
It's not that bad, because deep in our souls, we know it's bad.
00:20:40.789 --> 00:20:42.634
We know it's bad and that's why you feel shame.
00:20:42.674 --> 00:20:45.287
Yeah, and I think this is the classic.
00:20:45.287 --> 00:20:51.814
You know, therapeutic, moralistic deism is the God of this age, where it says no, and this gets into parenting.
00:20:51.814 --> 00:20:54.316
We don't want our kids to feel bad, and so everyone gets a trophy.
00:20:54.316 --> 00:21:02.973
And so what happens is, with your sin, we go ah, don't feel bad, don't feel bad, don't condemn yourself like that, as opposed to, you are fully condemned.
00:21:02.973 --> 00:21:10.326
However Jesus took, he paid the penalty for you, and that brings hope that leads to worship it leads to worship.
00:21:10.326 --> 00:21:10.567
Yeah.
00:21:10.586 --> 00:21:14.088
Praise the Lord and I think that's the part that is sort of missing in.
00:21:14.088 --> 00:21:24.415
I guess therapeutic, moralistic deism is this aspect of the weight of sin, and then the reality of everyone just wants everyone to feel better.
00:21:24.415 --> 00:21:27.897
So I really appreciate everything you said.
00:21:27.897 --> 00:21:36.323
It's like you're walking through condemnation and shame and you should, unless you really give it over to Jesus.
00:21:36.323 --> 00:21:53.357
And the way the Bible describes you giving that over to Jesus is through the confession of sin and then having someone sort of receive that, which is where the Catholics crushed it at this until it doesn't work right.
00:21:53.357 --> 00:22:04.230
But ultimately, the reason why you go to a priest for the confession of sin is they're assuming like you're a complete train wreck and you're gonna be sinning all the time, which is why you usually have a daily mass where you have the opportunity to go and confess sin and then take communion and sacraments.
00:22:04.592 --> 00:22:10.549
And I think for the evangelical church we may have taken on some of that moralistic, therapeutic deism.
00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:12.553
We don't want anyone to feel bad, because we should be.
00:22:12.553 --> 00:22:14.234
You know, listen, god forgave you.
00:22:14.234 --> 00:22:16.238
There's grace, yes, and that is true.
00:22:16.238 --> 00:22:23.707
However, the way that God has called us to deal with our sin is through confession and repentance and prayer, and that's where the healing comes.
00:22:23.707 --> 00:22:27.287
I just want to make sure that that's the part of that I feel like is missing.
00:22:27.287 --> 00:22:28.568
And again, I don't.
00:22:28.568 --> 00:22:45.057
This is not our church is the best church to talk, but this is like I feel like that's the one area we've we've been really strong at and helping people overcome addiction, helping overcome sin, patterns, hurts, habits and hang-ups I feel like your y'all's church is more like you're like for me.
00:22:45.317 --> 00:22:53.151
I get the vibe that's like I'm gonna be real with you, man yeah, you know, it's like you're not sugarcoating it because like that's, I feel like that's today's culture.
00:22:53.151 --> 00:22:56.878
It's like everyone is super hypersensitive to the truth.
00:22:56.878 --> 00:23:00.472
They get offended so easily and they shun.
00:23:00.472 --> 00:23:08.958
I guess my personal experience is I've seen people push back so much harder.
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I was like, well, if you don't want the truth, then bye peace.
