Transcript
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back to pastor plex podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor plec, and we are talking about a hot button issue that just hit the set and, uh, adrian is going to just share.
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Adrian is going to go.
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Before she goes, just tell us how you grew up nope, she doesn't want to share that but uh, brie has a dilemma, a question that she just brought up and it infused so much um fire on in the studio here that we need to talk about it that's probably a good thing.
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This person doesn't listen to the podcast I was just going to ask if they don't.
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I know they don't well, I question.
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Yeah.
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Oh, the hug question is is it okay to hug the opposite sex like a forward-facing?
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Hug a front hug instead of a side hug.
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Chest to chest, yeah, and I think that's dependent upon the person.
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And the reason I'd say that is, if you're hugging and you're just looking to feel boobs, then that probably isn't the best move, uh, but if, but if you're hugging and you're just there's a way to hug where you're not like smashing up against the person, um, and there's a way to side hugs are great, you know, and maybe you know as the the, the closer, the friendship or whatever.
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It just depends on on where you're at, um with the connection.
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But, yeah, so for me personally, I kind of, I kind of kind of gauge the comfort level of the other person and I, if I've just met them, I kind of go side hugging cause I don't want to be weird about it.
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Uh, if, like, if they just lean in for, uh, you know cause they're like, oh, it's so great to see I haven't seen you, or whatever, but I I hug them.
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And you know we have different backgrounds.
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We've got Latin culture here, where I have some sweet grandmas that will launch a massive kiss on my cheek and it's the best.
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I think that's super sweet.
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And then I've got very, you know, the handshakers, you know.
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So you've, I kind of don't want to break a barrier that somebody is uncomfortable with, and so I'm sort of trying to manage that, um, but I do want to show affection in a brotherly way, um, and I think that's important to do.
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I think it's important to initiate affection, uh, because, you know, greet one another with a holy kiss is, I think, an imperative that you have to culturally define of what it is to show affection in a physical way.
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That is not weird.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, what do you think there, pastor Holland?
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Yeah, I think this.
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So holy kiss.
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Four commands in the New Testament Romans 16, 16,.
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Greet one another with a holy kiss.
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First, Corinthians 16, 20, greet one another with a holy kiss.
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Second, Corinthians 13, 12, greet one another with a holy kiss.
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First Thessalonians 5, 26,.
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Greet all one another with a holy kiss.
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2 Corinthians 13, 12, greet one another with a holy kiss.
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1 Thessalonians 5, 26,.
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Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
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Four times in the New Testament.
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Right, and like it sounds funny, but I feel convicted about this.
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I'm like what are we doing with handshakes, bro?
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Am I sinning?
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Get that out the door.
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Am I Like I don't kiss anyone except my wife and kids on Sunday?
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Yeah, at my church, me either, and you know, a hug.
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I think you repent, so you could go well, this is a principle.
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A couple grandmas I give a kiss back to whenever they give me the yeah, Good for you.
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Yeah, you, you could go take this on.
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You know, in that culture a holy kiss was an actual kiss.
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You know, in ours the principle of a holy kiss is like a hug, but it kind of feels like a cop-out.
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And I wonder if we need to initiate some holy kissing.
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I mean, is there like a reformation that needs to happen here, bringing back the holy kiss?
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Let me tell you this when I was in Iraq, obviously I was a Christian, but I was with Muslims everywhere.
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Right, I would sneak into a house and it was like my informant.
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So I'd go in the dead of the night, wake them up, scare the absolute crap out of them and you've got like seven guys in the room with machine guns in their house.
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But then they would bring out the tea and they would greet me with a holy kiss.
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Now, when I greeted them, I was wearing my helmet and nods, and it was you know the awkward where you drill something like headbutt somebody.
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I mean, I took these guys out left and right, not meaning to, but because they went full in holy kiss and I'm not used to it.
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I'm not, and you know their beards all over my face.
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It was totally the weirdest thing.
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However, once I got used to it, I appreciated the closeness I felt to my informants.
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It made me feel closer to them.
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Yeah, as wild as that may seem, and so I do think there is something powerful to it.
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I hear that, okay, so one, okay, the full, the front hug thing and like the problem there, like someone's trying to avoid, like temptation, because of a hug which I think is evidence of just like man, it is hard for us to imagine any kind of physical touch that's not sexual Right and so which makes you go?
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Well, we definitely don't need to be kissing each other, unless maybe the answer is to like.
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Yeah, kissing each other, unless maybe the answer is to like yeah, maybe what we need actually is to be more intentional about healthy, non-sexual physical affection in a familial type of way, and that might help, like actually break down the over sexualization and renormalize non-sexual, yeah, physical.
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I don't know, maybe the answer here.
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I feel like this, the Maybe the answer here how did we get here?
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I feel like the question I would like to ask is how did we get here?
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So I've done some travel around the world and when I had some like not Russian, but just west of Russia friendships like Slovenian or whatever, and like I got kisses on the cheek from those dudes and again it was.
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I was not prepared for that and it was in an American setting, but they were totally that was their culture and I was like I guess we're doing this.
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You know it was, I was not, and okay.
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And then also when I was in Africa, in in Tanzania, um, I was walking along the beach and this Tanzanian man starts holding my hand.
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Oh yeah, hold hands everywhere and I was like dying a thousand deaths and I couldn't stop talking.
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I'd be like, well, I guess we're holding hands now.
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This is, you know, not something we do, and I was so weirded out by it that I talked about the whole time.
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But I hung in there because I was like I'm not going to be weird, I'm going to hang in there on this whole hand-holding thing, but it was very difficult because it was so abnormal, and I think that's part of me wonders.
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is it a British and American thing where we've over-sexualized everything and so we've?
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I don't know.
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What is it?
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My basic theory on pretty much every problem that exists in all societies, everywhere, is like the fathers, it just always goes back to your father and so like I think that's just like.
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That's somehow it's related to that of fathers not showing affection to their families and their children not showing affection to their wife, not showing loving fatherly affection to their children, not encouraging an environment of loving affection in the home.
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The father's failure of that has made us all just kind of like you know um, emotional affectionate orphans in a sense where we just don't know how to do this, well mixed with, like, the prevalence of pornography and may you know takes that like we don't know how to do affection, and then we see this overemphasis on sexual stuff, with all the pornography and all the and takes that like we don't know how to do affection, and then we see this overemphasis on sexual stuff with all the pornography and all the overly sexualized media and stuff like that.
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I think that combo probably is what brought us to where we are yeah, because when I think about what people wear, when you go to tropical countries or you go to Africa, they're not wearing much.
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It's not like they know.
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It's not like they have this sense of like modesty, they're just like this is what you do, is what you wear like I'm showing my shoulders.
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I don't care like that kind of thing is like a normalized part of culture, right?
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yeah, I see what you're saying.
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So I, just because something happens somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing, absolutely sure.
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So you do have a point, right.
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Right, it's like but in that culture no one's thinking, whoa, I, I'm like, it's not sexualized, it's just whatever.
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Now again, yeah to your point.
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Just because it's in another country doesn't make it right, uh, but that does bring us what is right, yeah and and it may be the existence of, you know an equal and opposite problem of being so familiar.
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I'm not saying I don't have any particular place in mind.
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I'm just saying it's possible for a culture where the normalization of not wearing much clothing and there's supposed to be a sense of dignity that's protected by modesty that you could lose in some cultures as well.
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So, there's a lot of ways you can go wrong with it.
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Um, I mean, that's how Brazil is How's Brazil?
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Yeah, like you go to the beach, it's like G strings everywhere.
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Okay, and that's just the norm, right.
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That's that seems like.
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Is that over-sexualization, or is that people being normal?
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That's the hard part to wrap your head around.
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Yeah, I think it probably.
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I mean I don't know the history of it, but I feel like it began as just the norm, yeah, but now it's to a point where, like it's so, everything is so over-sexualized, and it's part of my story is that, like my sexuality was opened up when I was probably like five or six, that like my sexuality was opened up when I was probably like five or six, oh, wow, and that was just, I guess, the norm.
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You know, it's so in your face and everywhere, that it's just what happens.
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And so I think to your point, like, just because it happens there and that's the norm, it doesn't make it good or right.
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And I was going to say too, I definitely agree with it being something that starts with fathers, Because for myself, you know, I had a dad who would show affection, like you know, a hug and sometimes like you know a full hug, but it wasn't like a whole lot to where, like it just wasn't a lot, you know.
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And so, growing up, like I never hugged no other dudes, and even up until coming to this church hugging a dude, especially like chest to chest, I'm not gonna lie and I'm gonna say it felt gay.
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But you guys know, zach bice, yeah, that dude hugs, hugs and break your back.
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And now, after being at this church for so long and having dudes tell me I love you, you, it's the norm to me.
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I'll hug every guy I meet now because I'm like bro, that's just the way you do it and, to your point, it makes me feel really close to them.
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And so, even though it's kind of funny talking about a brotherly kiss, I'm like dude, imagine how much closer we would feel to each other if we started greeting with a brotherly kiss.
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I'm saying I'm feeling the Lord's stirring something right now.
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It's funny, but there's so much truth behind it.
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It's literally commanded four times in the New Testament.
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Does that not stick with you guys.
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No listen, I'm with you.
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So I kissed my dad on the lips when I was a teenager and I didn't even think anything of it and it was just like what you did and I don't know.
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I don't know if that is good, bad or different.
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I was waiting to see if Pablo was going to say gay or not.
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I feel bad now.
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I don't know, it was just my dad, and so I was just like that's just what you did.
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I.
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I feel so bad because my grandpa has mastered the brotherly kiss Like he will go greet, you say goodbye, anyone doesn't matter who you are, and he's immediately going for the lips.
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And every time you have to dodge, but now I feel bad for dodging him.
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Yeah, and you know it's wild.
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My mom is that way, Like I don't know if she's kissed you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, she's kissed Grayson right on the lips and he was like— Like a decade ago.
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Yeah, and he was not ready for that one.
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And that's just my—I grew up like that, and so when I came to Christian culture in the late 90s and I realized oh, I'm the weird one I didn't realize that I had a whole bunch of things that were not normal and I think I crossed everyone's physical boundary lines.
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But then you read the Bible, yeah, and then I was like maybe.
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I'm doing it right, wow, look at that Anyway.
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But but now to think about kissing a dude like that's been conditioned in me.
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Yeah, that's weird.
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Now thankfully, now I kiss my sons.
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I don't kiss them on the lips like my dad did, but I kiss them on their face, their head, their you know all over.
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I don't mind that, Um, and so I think that's something we probably need to institute more yeah, institute like require for membership Institute is like official on stage Brotherly kiss.
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Let's go we're now going to do a man I meet and greet time About to get a whole lot more Juicy, Uncomfortable for some people.
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Oh man, Come on somebody I know we're like, I mean we're being silly and stuff but I really am thinking about this like.
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But to Pablo's point, the amount of I love you's I hear at our church.
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I'm really encouraged.
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That's healthy, that's so good.
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Like dudes say I love you, I don't know if women are doing that, which is kind of interesting I don't think we like you.
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I notice men will say it to someone they just met.
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I think women you have to have a much more intimate friendship with, to just say it unless they come to you with like a crisis, like if I'm on the person and someone comes to me the crisis, I always say, like, say, like I love you, like you're, you know we're here for you, even if I don't know them.
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But if it's just like in passing or hey, nice to meet you, like I never.
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Yeah, it is.
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I think we do say.
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The men are saying I love you left, and right All right, check this out.
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This is from some random website.
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Okay, here we go.
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Random website which we know is going to give gospel truth.
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Here we go.
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It says the usual interpretation is that the holy kiss itself is not important.
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The greeting is the thing we're told.
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It doesn't really matter how you do it.
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Back then it was a holy kiss.
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Today it's a handshake.
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Same thing.
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Now that seems right until you think about it.
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A kiss is not the same thing as a handshake.
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Just ask any teenager.
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In the Bible, the holy kiss was a sign of love, respect, friendship and honor.
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It was a mark of innocent affection.
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That's like that.
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Innocent affection is what we are like deprived of.
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We've seen numerous examples of this sort of kiss in the Bible.
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Jacob kissed his father Genesis 27.
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Laban kissed Joseph Genesis 29.
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Esau kissed Jacob Genesis 33.
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Joseph kissed his brothers Genesis 45.
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Aaron kissed Moses, exodus 4.
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Moses kissed Jethro Exodus 18.
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Naomi kissed Ruth and Orpah Ruth.
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1.
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David kissed Jonathan.
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1 Samuel 20.
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The father kissed the prodigal son, luke 15.
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That's a lot of kissing.
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The LGBTQ crowd is going to have a field day with this one lot of kissing.
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The lgbtq crowd is gonna have a field day with this one.
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Well, but I think that's.
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Let's see.
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The reason why they could, they would, is because they're.
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What they're saying is that all kissing these are not kisses, that's based on a sexual right.
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All kissing is sexual right, so I.
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what I love about that is those are familial kisses and so, as christians, since we're brothers and sisters in christ, that would be an appropriate response.
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Yeah, but we got to change the culture.
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Man, I think we're at a good start with the I love you's, and hugs.
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Yeah.
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But man, I don't know, this might be a reach, but I think it.
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I don't know you can somehow tie this to how separated people are as a whole, like isolated.
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You know, in a community like we, we've lived at places where we didn't.
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We lived there for like two years and we didn't know our next door neighbor, right, and I think I don't know you could somehow tie it to that where it's like we're so afraid of something that feels I don't know, uncommon or unnatural, right like going to your neighbor, introducing yourself, getting to know them, and you know I don't know well.
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So let's go back to the original question, which was our like, uh, frontal hugs.
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I'm like what was the original?
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question yeah so, and the reason you you brought it up earlier like if you've got large breasts, it's going to be like, oh, it's going to be an awkward hug, right, or it could be is that kind of what we were saying earlier?
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well, it's like almost impossible to not touch them at all right, and so what do you do then?
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um like, so what's your plan?
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Or do you even think about it, or do you think about it now?
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I think about it now because it was a guy that brought it up to me.
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So now I'm like, oh, surely every guy thinks this way.
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So now, when a guy goes in for a front hug, I'm like, why is he going in for a front hug?
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Is he thinking about my breath, like, do I give him a front hug?
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Do I, like, give them the awkward?
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Oh, I'm only gonna do a side, like I'm overthinking it now to the point where I will never initiate a hug with another man that's not my husband whoa man, the women come up like these ultimatums at the end of like these things, like all right, I'm tired of feeling like I'm in the wrong okay, yeah, um, all right it's good, so I'm just like I just won't go there.
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Okay, fair enough, fair enough all right, all right.
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I have seen women, when they're in the front, hug awkward moment.
00:17:13.148 --> 00:17:15.039
They do the super lean, just arms.
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:24.982
They'll lean their body over, so their boobs go down and then they connect up here it's all shoulders I've seen that.
00:17:28.555 --> 00:17:30.239
Again, depending on the size of your breast.
00:17:30.239 --> 00:17:31.883
There's no Okay, fair enough, yeah.
00:17:33.934 --> 00:17:36.042
You might like an animal neck hug.
00:17:36.042 --> 00:17:37.829
Okay, good point.
00:17:37.829 --> 00:17:40.661
Yeah, I think that is a dilemma.
00:17:40.801 --> 00:17:46.705
All right, there's no command in the Bible to hug anyone Right, so I don't know.
00:17:46.746 --> 00:17:49.463
I mean, there's one to kiss there is one to give a holy kiss.
00:17:49.565 --> 00:17:52.519
But no commands for hugs, but if you're struggling with a hug.
00:17:52.538 --> 00:17:53.741
you're going to struggle with a kiss?
00:17:53.741 --> 00:17:54.884
I don't know.
00:17:54.884 --> 00:17:55.846
I don't know Really.
00:17:56.395 --> 00:17:58.103
A kiss on the cheek Hug equals boobs.
00:17:58.103 --> 00:18:00.102
Kiss is just, you know, germs.
00:18:01.355 --> 00:18:07.657
I think when there's something that's not you know, it's a matter of conscience and there's freedom.
00:18:07.657 --> 00:18:12.840
There's liberty to set up rules for yourself or for other people.
00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:20.085
Where you're not violating your own conscience and feel like you're not doing something wrong, You're allowed to do that.
00:18:20.085 --> 00:18:29.910
We can't expect other people, we can't put those rules on other people, but for you personally, you're like I'm just going to give high fives because that's what I'm comfortable with.
00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:36.053
Everyone can kind of manage and govern themselves in that way, I think.
00:18:36.053 --> 00:18:48.823
But I think the underlying issue there is just the over-sexualization and the fact that we can't have normal brotherly affection, brotherly-sisterly affection with each other without kind of taking it too far.
00:18:48.843 --> 00:18:49.464
This just in.
00:18:49.464 --> 00:18:51.722
We had a live texter from our studio audience.
00:18:51.722 --> 00:19:03.704
It says this hey, listen, someone like me and that me is someone who has gay desires is screwed without culturally accepted physical affection.
00:19:03.704 --> 00:19:10.342
Touch starved Would be nice if it was normalized more, maybe even help someone in my situation to normalize male affection.
00:19:11.977 --> 00:19:25.997
Wait, so saying that what would be helpful was more male affection to normalize it, so it wouldn't become this like ooh exciting, whatever, that's what.
00:19:26.037 --> 00:19:57.728
I'm saying I think if we work more at normalizing innocent affection, it might decrease the amount of like weirdness that some people feel about stuff like a front hug or you know, even like same-sex desire stuff, when you're like, oh actually like there's a sinful desire, but it's also like I just want affection, like not sexual affection, but just like friendship, community touch, a hug, you know, a brotherly kiss, I don't know, does that make sense?
00:19:57.728 --> 00:19:58.978
It totally makes sense.
00:19:59.018 --> 00:20:06.183
I feel like sure, I just like how do you is that where, like at Eastside Community Church, you're going to have like kiss your neighbor day?
00:20:06.183 --> 00:20:06.780
I mean, like what?
00:20:06.842 --> 00:20:08.499
how do you institute Kiss your neighbor day?
00:20:08.499 --> 00:20:09.162
Is that what you said?
00:20:11.974 --> 00:20:12.256
neighbor day.
00:20:12.256 --> 00:20:13.720
I mean like what, how do you kiss your neighbor day?