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277: Catie Sas and Pastor Plek are on the podcast to recap Sunday's sermon on Exodus. They discuss the intricate fabric of community responsibility and how to navigate teaching children the balance of grace and accountability through Scripture.
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00:06 - Exploring Exodus Laws and Reconciliation
07:20 - Importance of Friendship and Understanding Law
17:21 - Joseph's Forgiveness and Reconciliation
27:53 - Physical Affection in Compassion and Forgiveness
Speaker 1:
And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plex, and joining me in studio once again is another that misses Katie Sass. Katie, how are you?
Speaker 2:
I'm doing great. I love that.
Speaker 1:
Well, we're talking about the sermon from this past Sunday where I got into, I know, pretty much everyone's favorite chapter of the Bible, exodus 21. And we were looking at the different laws regarding what to do if she would have talked about I went blank on it, do you remember?
Speaker 2:
the escape like the refuge.
Speaker 1:
Oh yeah, the sanctuary city. Okay, so if you killed somebody by accident, yeah Well, first if you murder them, then you died. If you killed somebody by accident, you went to a sanctuary city and then the flip side of that was that it was sort of like a this is why it's so strange, but I actually kind of been thinking about it on why it's like this. The next one was about don't punch your parents and don't curse your parents and no kidnapping.
Speaker 2:
But it doesn't actually say punch strike. Yeah, don't strike your parents.
Speaker 1:
Don't strike your parents, but no, but so that I think I guess kids were just like.
Speaker 2:
But you got to think I mean I'm picturing like a teenager or think of like an old.
Speaker 1:
So this is where this usually happens. Well and I don't want to say usually, but elder care. So sometimes when your parents get older, they can get ornery. And when you get ornery you annoy your kids, annoy your kids or hit your kids and so kind of was like don't, if they hit you, you can't hit them back. That's the way I see that Cause I think there's. You know, are you going to kill a toddler for smacking you? Probably not teenager maybe, but by that time they were seen as grown men. And so you know we they didn't have the delayed adolescence like that we did, but you know you're kind of at a job at 13 year out there working, so anyway, so yeah, so I think that's what that is on the don't strike your parents piece of it, have you? When you, when you heard that, what was your first thought?
Speaker 2:
I just thought okay, that's probably good advice. Well, I have, I did.
Speaker 1:
I did share that with my kids, like, hey, you deserve the death penalty if you hit us.
Speaker 2:
Or I remember you saying that and I just thought what a weird thing to like say to your kids and they go and I said that's where we're giving you grace and that's you know. You deserve it it reminds me of like when a kid's not eating their food and then, or like complaining about their food and then you're like you're like. Well, just think of the kids in Africa. That like it's so, it's like it just seems like such a guilt trip.
Speaker 1:
It's not a guilt trip, but it's true. It's right here in the Bible. You deserve death and I'm giving you grace.
Speaker 2:
Good luck today. We're not gonna kill you, You're welcome.
Speaker 1:
Hey, hey, you're welcome, you're welcome. So, anyway, I think it was helpful and I think that's to any like. That's why we deserve death for our sin. It was able I was able to communicate the gospel with us. The reason why I'm not gonna kill you is because of one I love you and I'm gonna absorb the debt of your sin. Just as Jesus absorbed the debt of our sin. That's kind of how you go down that road, cause ultimately, that's where forgiveness lies. The thing that's interesting, though you're like not impressed by that argument.
Speaker 2:
Well, I'm just like you would be the one that took it that far and like told your kids that yeah yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:
Well, I mean it's like whenever anyone says like you deserve whatever thing is good, no, no, oh yeah, no. I hate when people say that you actually deserve death Like you deserve it, like no, actually.
Speaker 2:
You're a sinner and you deserve heaven, right, so I'm just you know, preparing them for those.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, I know All right so the cool part about Exis 21, and this is the way I want you, I want everyone to sort of think of Exis 21, exis 22, and Exis 23 in terms of concentric circles. Okay, so at the very core is how you treat the individual. So slavery and murder. So you're not allowed to just abduct someone, make them a slave. They have to be sold, they have to choose to go into slavery which is sort of a wild thing to think about because they're poor or whatever, and then you're not allowed to murder somebody. Then the next piece is like the more extended circle is the family unit. So don't punch or curse your mom and dad. No kidnapping, okay, so that would be. And anyone who was found doing those things gets the death penalty. And then the next thing, which is what we're gonna get to this following week, is like restitution. It's like how do you create community identity? So the circle goes wider, and then you put the death penalty around like sorcery, bestiality and idolatry, which then is kind of protecting the community identity as God's people. And then what's sort of interesting is that then the community is there to serve the sojourner, the widow, the orphan, the poor. And so now the concentric circle goes a little bit wider, and so that's sort of the direction of that we at least look at, like the concentric circles go outward and so in the so murder. I think we're all on board with that. But Jesus takes it one step further and he says don't just not murder, reconcile. And I think that's why I said like that's really the spirit of the Old Testament. But what happens is we get stuck in. Well, I didn't kill anybody, and I think I mean I don't know if you've ever heard this Katie like when someone's talking to you and you know are you a good person they usually go to. I haven't killed anybody.
Speaker 2:
It's like the big extremes, like well, I've never done any of that, right you know.
Speaker 1:
I haven't raped and molested an entire, you know. I haven't even genocided lately.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
But, and so your like standard is so unbelievably low, right, it reminds me of like you know, Google's motto forever ago was don't be evil. And what you're? When you have your standards so low, it's like, well, you can just be kind of naughty, and that's okay. Or like you can kind of you can kind of just be a jerk, and that's fine. You're not evil, you're just a butthole. You know like I think that's kind of where I think people want to raise the bar.
Speaker 2:
You're just like 10% evil Right.
Speaker 1:
I'm not full on evil.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
All right. And so Jesus, he takes it. You know, you've heard it said, you know, don't murder, and anyone who kills anybody is liable to judgment. And then he kind of does this, he says but I tell you, I want you to reconcile, I want you to you know, love your enemies. Like such a wild thought for you as a Christian, obviously, but comparing yourself to before, you're a Christian and now? Do those words of Jesus resonate, or are they weird? How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:
Like a reconciling.
Speaker 1:
Like when he says but I say to you, anyone who's angry with his brother would be liable to judgment. And or he say like so if you're offering your gift, the altar and they remember something, your brother has something against you. Leave the gift there at the altar and then go first be reconciled to your brother, like has that been something that you've had to implement in your life at all? Or, and how have you done that? And like, how is it? Has it gone the way you thought it would go?
Speaker 2:
So one of the big things that I learned about friendship when I became a Christian was that when someone irritates you, or when you're just like frustrated or someone wrongs you, like you don't just kick them out of your life and you don't just go well, I guess we're not friends anymore, like I don't want to be friends with her.
Speaker 1:
And blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:
I don't need that in my life, Like she's toxic or whatever it is, and I genuinely was just like well, I mean, if I don't, if I don't want to like make it better, I don't you know, there was just no motivation.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, did you ever hear people talk about everyone having narcissistic personality disorder?
Speaker 2:
I mean, I hear about it now. I don't know that I've like really thought too deeply into it.
Speaker 1:
It's just like only 1% of the person, 1% of the population has it, but I hear it all the time.
Speaker 2:
I mean, I think if you dig deep enough into, like the psychology side of Instagram you'll hear all of it. But, like as a when I became a Christian, I kind of learned that, like when some, when you've been hurt by someone or when you're frustrated with someone, like you go and you talk to them about it and there's reconciliation and, like you, you move forward in the friendship and you try to seek a better place for the both of you, rather than going oh, I'm not going to apologize because I don't think I need to, or I, you know, I don't care what she says, I don't care what she thinks, who does she think she is at swine team? And so now, like I vividly remember that developing in my head of this is how you do friendship as a Christian.
Speaker 1:
I love that and so before like talking about your friendships, before you're a Christian, obviously they're just just cut them off. But like there was this shift, was that was any? Did any person in particular like say, hey, you can't just do that, you have to? Did someone have a conversation with you or how? Or did you just learn it?
Speaker 2:
I mean it was I don't remember a specific conversation, but it was probably, you know, someone like Katie or Ginny. I mean those were my like best friends then at the time.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so great, okay. So then the next part that we talked about was, you know, essentially we said not murdering is good, reconciliation is better. And again back to the letter of the spirit of law, and this is the story I told at the very beginning, which was in 1926, this guy named Billy McCord, naughty man, he knew about a plane that was stolen and he was like hey, I know how to move product. So he moved the stolen plane from Illinois to Oklahoma, where he was gonna then help it get sold. And he didn't steal the plane, he just moved stolen goods across state lines. Now, at the time there was a law against interstate motor vehicle transportation that you could go to jail and find if you knowingly transported a stolen motor vehicle across state lines. Okay, to what you're like isn't an airplane across state lines? Well, the law literally says something with an engine that doesn't run on rails. And then but, because so the first court they find him guilty, they're gonna find him $2,000 and however long in prison he appeals, circuit of appeals goes yeah, he is guilty. And then we're gonna find the ruling stands. Well, it somehow gets to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court in 1930 said, because the law didn't specifically say airplane, that he should be let go. So he dropped, like he spent four years appealing it. He's let go free and you're like that is a known criminal who literally helped transport a stolen airplane across state lines. Aiden abetted the enemy and I'm just like what in the world? And the Chief Justice of the time Said you know, you just got to be specific. You have to give the, the community and the population a ready opportunity to know that that's illegal.
Speaker 2:
I'm just like, come on you didn't know that, that he knew what he was doing.
Speaker 1:
I mean, I'm so.
Speaker 2:
Here's the story is like no, nobody would just go. Oh, steel the stealing is fine, it's not?
Speaker 1:
it's not a big deal because it's not written in the law right and now, technically he didn't steal it, but he knew it was stolen and he moved across state lines and that's where you're just like. That is absolutely Ridiculous. So anyway, I thought that was interesting. That's why I went to the letter law versus the Spirit of law and we had a great question that came in specifically about that. You gave an interesting story regarding the letter of the law versus the spirit of law with a stolen airplane. However, if our judges judged on the spirit of the law, isn't that rather ambiguous and people can argue that they see a different spirit to the law than someone else.
Speaker 2:
Would your answer have anything to do about conviction?
Speaker 1:
Yeah. So here's the way I answer this one, because you to this, to this person's point, you know we can read the law and Then go well, this, that doesn't specifically say this. And you could in fact argue I mean, it doesn't say don't move an airplane, and that's ultimately what those judges ruled didn't say don't, don't move an airplane. But within Christian circles and this is the part I think that makes sense is, remember, we have God's word, god's spirit and God's people. So this is why it's important to belong to a church, especially when it comes to friendships or issues and friction. Right, you go first, what does God's word say? And then you go what is the Holy, how's the Holy Spirit convicting me? And then, how is? What did God's people say about that? And so then you have of, I mean, it's not I don't know if it's gonna be perfect this side of heaven, but it's pretty good that when you get God's people who have God's spirit and have God's word, they're gonna be able to come to conclusion a good decision, right, and that. So I think that's why the spirit of the law, like this, is this is the point where, like, at what point are you gonna have this question? Like, is it, you know? Is it okay to speed to get my wife to the hospital? You know, I think, is that what we're talking about? I'm not sure that. The part of it that's hard about this question is is If our judges judge and the spirit of the law isn't that rather ambiguous and people can argue, they can see a different spirit to the law than someone else, and I think you can always say well, hypothetically, there's always some issue and that's why I'd love to know more about this question and go okay, tell me a situation where it is ambiguous and I can tell you how I'd answer it.
Speaker 2:
Well, it just makes me think of, you know, with sin. So we don't sit here and like try not to sin, right, the goal is to not, is it to just not sin? No goal is to be like Christ right and so if we're constantly aiming for Christ likeness, then we're never gonna try to just like Brush, like as close as we can to the line.
Speaker 1:
I think this is a good one for like Okay, how men and women opposite sex should be dating like you know what's the line right you know. And so then you know someone say, well, when do I move from treating my Sister in Christ like a sister in Christ and when I'm, when do I have I moved into married in my head and treating her like a wife and we're not married? And that is a gray area that I think that's where you have God's word, you have God's spirit and you have God's people to help you discern that. So I think that that's that's actually a great point. You're into the questions point that people might come with different solutions, but the heart is, I think, the spirit of law is Don't get your place, don't you get yourself into a place of lust and I think everybody would say that's, that's the win. We're not putting yourself into temptation.
Speaker 2:
Right, it's like if you're alone together and you're like well, technically we didn't really do anything right, but was it a wise decision good.
Speaker 1:
Yeah or like. For me it's always been don't go horizontal on the couch right, cuz that never goes, never goes.
Speaker 2:
Well, never goes, never goes anywhere. Kingdom-minded right right.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so I think that's. I think that's it. But I think that's where bringing the question out into the open usually brings it a clear answer. I think it's usually that people don't bring it into the open. People don't have, you know, plans fail for lack of counsel. With many advisors they succeed, and so I don't think you're having God's people speak into your questions. Usually we I call it the Christian tourists. When you have God's word and God's spirit, but you leave out God's people, you're like nah, I don't want anyone to know me and I don't want anyone to speak into my life because I don't want to hear what they have to say. And what you're saying is like I'm afraid that those people are either going to tell me no or judge me and so you don't have any real vulnerability, right, okay, um, here's the next question from this particular Sunday Let the darkness of the past go is I guess I must have said that at some point in the sermon and and this person said I agree and love that we're talking about this in church and letting Jesus heal those old wounds. I'm curious in scripture how you see Joseph let the darkness of the past go, or how much did he have to bring to God before he could reconcile. Was it instantaneous or take a lot of years? What I've heard and learned is when he reconciles, he brings them to land that was plentiful, but he does not trust them to be close. There was forgiveness and love, but he did not forget what they did. But I could have that wrong. Do you remember the story of Joseph on this particular thing?
Speaker 2:
Um re Give you a quick refresher.
Speaker 1:
Yes, so remember. Joseph was the young uh, second, the youngest son of uh, jacob, and his brothers older brother, especially Ruben Levi, simeon, judah, uh and the others were not exactly thrilled that their younger brother got all the attention of their dad, cause he was the son for oldest, son of Rachel, who was Jacob's favorite wife, and you have four wives, you gotta have a favorite, that's the way that goes. And so he got the coat of many colors. Remember that they get upset with him. Uh, Judah, one day has a brilliant idea of not killing him, cause they thought about killing him and as I know let's sell him because that's the compassionate thing to do, and so they fake his death, sell, sell them into slavery, and then there goes um and then, years later, they need food and have no idea. So they show up and, and Joseph recognized them immediately. Okay, so he puts them through some tests to see where their hearts are, and he goes all right, leave Simeon here and the rest of you guys go back. And so then he puts gold in their sack. So it's kind of funny, cause remember when, when they took Joseph, whenever they came home from selling Joseph, they came back with more money and one less son. And so they go back to their father, jacob, and their one less son and way more money.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, do you remember that?
Speaker 1:
So he sneaks the gold in their sack. And then, uh, so then they're, like you know, the father's broken heart. Now I've lost two sons because you guys are just evil, wicked people. And eventually, like they're about to starve and Ruben goes you know, I'll kill my own sons too If we don't bring back your kids. And you're just like, you're ridiculous. And then Judah goes listen, I swear in my life that I will bring back your sons, meaning I'll, I'll sacrifice my life. It's like Ruben, you're a complete. It Like you're going to sacrifice your own kids.
Speaker 2:
That like that's going to make anyway. So Judah says, listen, I'm going to bring them back.
Speaker 1:
I swear in my life I'm going to do it. So Judah goes down and and the whole, all the other brothers go down again. They see Joseph you know Simeon's there and they go listen, um, we need to buy more grain and we want our brother back. And so they buy more grain. And then he puts his gold cup in there.
Speaker 2:
Uh, his, his, and so anyway to.
Speaker 1:
Then they leave and they put it in Benjamin sack, which was which was Jacob's favorite kid, second only to Joseph, because he was from Rachel. And so whenever the brothers see that that the stolen or the Joseph's cup is in there, they lose their minds because they know they're going to break their dad's heart, because clearly this guy's going to die, and they say, hey, listen, the rest is so. Joseph goes, hey, the rest you guys can go. Um, I'll just keep Benjamin Hill. He's the only one has to lose his life. And he's thinking himself if they're like that, um, shallow, that they can go back home. I'm saving my younger brother and he's going to live with me here for forever. But if they like, plead for his life now. I know that they're legit. Okay, so they. So Judah goes. No, I will stay, I will, I will, I will give my life for this kid. You, I, we can't go back to my dad empty handed. And that's when Joseph breaks down crying and he goes you're my brothers, and he brings them all in really close and says it's me, it's Joseph, and then he gives them the best place in the land to stay Now.
Speaker 2:
I remember when I read that and I was like so teary eyed.
Speaker 1:
Oh, it's powerful.
Speaker 2:
Like it's such a moving story. Yeah, it's so moving.
Speaker 1:
And then what happens is he gives them all the best land. His father comes down, they all hang out, they all go to the big party. And then what happens? When Jacob dies, all the brothers freak out because they think that Joseph is now, because the father is dead, he, his allegiance to them is over. And that's when they come to him and they say hey, listen, we are your slaves, please forgive us. You know your. Your father, before he died, commanded us to, commanded you to forgive us. And then this is the classic Genesis 50-20 what you intended for evil, god intended for good, for the saving many lives. And so the thing that was wild about Joseph even when he was in prison, he knew that the Lord was with him. And I think this is the the beautiful thing about anybody who's in any situation. That's difficult. If you know that the Lord is with you, he's going to take whatever has been evil or dark or wicked and he's going to turn it for good. Now, I don't know if that's going to be in your lifetime, but ultimately it's not like God doesn't waste a tear.
Speaker 2:
It doesn't mean you don't get it, doesn't mean you get to see it, but it does mean it will happen.
Speaker 1:
But it will happen, and it's going to be this beautiful thing that ultimately, you'll see God's justice reign in that. So, what I loved about this specifically to this person's question is that J Joseph wholeheartedly forgave, wholeheartedly blessed them, gave them an abundance of wealth, and the funny thing is it's hard to receive it if you don't believe that you're forgiven. And so they I think not Joseph neglected their own relationship because okay, I know if you ever experienced if someone gives you a lot of money, you're like, let me get out of here before they change their mind. I don't know if you ever experienced anything like that. Someone's like hey, here's $1,000. You're like, thank you. And you're like how can I get out of here? Because this is weird. I don't know how to escape this moment, because why don't want them to change their mind? I'm not worthy of this, whatever. And then you leave and then you sort of feel like, oh, a few. And then whenever you see that person again, you always sort of feel like guilty because they just gave you something that you didn't serve. And I think that's how and this is what I know. This happens at our church. We've given away like five or six cars to different people. Every single one of them is left to church shortly after. And I asked like one of them like grew up with Adrian and that person said I just couldn't be close, I felt so guilty because I got something so generous in that while. So I think that what happens is, if you can't receive grace, that that's the place where I go is, when you struggle in receiving grace, when you struggle in receiving love, what ends up happening is you distance yourself relationally, and that's why some people have a hard time with God, because they have not. I mean, they understand that Jesus loves them and that in a sense, they're forgiven, but they don't want to draw close to God Because every time they draw close to God, they feel the wickedness of their soul because they haven't fully received what Jesus did for them. Yeah, so I think that the long answer, or the short answer to that question is simply you know, reconciliation is something that's really powerful. He didn't kind of put them at a distance. However, here's what I would say, because I know I'm sure there's background here that we don't know. I say this in marriage counseling all the time Forgiveness is given, Trust is earned. So I'm called to forgive you and I'm not called to trust you again until you've earned it.
Speaker 2:
Now, in a marriage, how do you do that? How do you not mix those out, Right?
Speaker 1:
how do you not? Yeah, so I think again. This is here's, you know.
Speaker 2:
Cause I feel like it can be really easy to like mesh those two oh absolutely.
Speaker 1:
And it's like I forgive you but I don't trust you, and I think there's a difference between those two things. Okay, so I forgive you. And so I need to see, I need to have full access to your phone all the time. I don't trust you Right, and I think you know, and at least in our house we were kind of at a place where any Adrian can look at my phone whenever and I don't even think about it. Right, and but I think for some couples that's a super huge move, cause I don't know if I can trust you to look at my phone or to look at my stuff and not judge me or think less of me or find out what's going on in my phone world. And to me that's like if you're going to build trust, the person that's broken trust needs to be unbelievably open in that realm. But it could come to a place of like. I don't trust you not to blow up at me about this subject, so I'm not going to talk about it with you until we have a third person present, and that's the way that.
Speaker 2:
I can see, yeah, so but forgiveness is like. Do you think that you can wait to forgive or, like, in that moment, do you have to say I forgive you, or can you say I need some time and then later come back and say I forgive you? Or is it like I'm choosing to not forgive and like, like forgiveness as a feeling?
Speaker 1:
You're asking all the right questions.
Speaker 2:
Because there have been times where I in that moment. I don't want to say I forgive you because I don't in that moment, but like, is it wrong of me to say I'm not ready to forgive you? Or it like because if it is and it is and I need to?
Speaker 1:
So you're commanded to forgive, and so the one thing I think of you know, core 10 Boom. This is like one of my favorite stories Core 10 Boom.
Speaker 2:
Makes all of us look like yeah, like we're all turpaks.
Speaker 1:
So Core 10 Boom. You know she's in Ravensbrook where she's getting beaten and her sister dies because of the unbelievable abuse and she somehow gets set free. All of her friends are killed and she shares the gospel. After you know, the war is over and she's in Germany sharing the gospel and this guy comes up and says hey, I'm one of the guards and I don't know if you remember it. And it's like, of course I remember. You're like scarred my brain and heart. And he says I've been forgiven by Jesus Christ. Would you be able to forgive me? And Core 10 Boom is like just locked in, and says Jesus, like in the moment she prays. I don't know if I can forgive him. God, I forgive me of the sin. I need you to forgive him. I need to believe that you can forgive for me. Because she couldn't shake his hand, she couldn't do anything. And then somehow, by the power of the spirit, she reaches out her hand and just once they grip hands, like compassion flowed out from her to him and total forgiveness was given.
Speaker 2:
That, yeah, I can relate to that, because there have been times where it's like I need like physical affection first to like allow that compassion to like. It's like if we- Really the hug is.
Speaker 1:
what does it for you?
Speaker 2:
Like if we hug, then it's like something bonds, like something is like connecting my compassion to my brain, like I don't know what it is, but like sometimes I just need that and then I can genuinely feel like I want to forgive.
Speaker 1:
Love that.
Speaker 2:
So. But I mean, I've always kind of wondered that, because there have been times where I'm just like what the heck? No, I don't-.
Speaker 1:
And I think that's the struggle in marriage, I think that's the struggle in relationships, and living Christian lives is difficult in general. All right, well, hey, that's enough also all the time we had for this particular post. Sermon podcast here on Pastor Plex podcast Listen, if you've got any questions about faith, culture or anything and everything in between. I would love to hear from you, we would love to hear from you and just simply text us at 737-231-0605, pastorplantcom. Love you, dear viewer. So from our house to yours, have an awesome Come on, let us have faith.
