Transcript
WEBVTT
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor Plek, and joining me in studio is none other than the lead pastor of Eastside Community Church, holland, gregg.
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Welcome, thank you very much, and also our very own apartment life team that we're so grateful for really doing a great job with some outreach over there.
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And what's your apartment?
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Bristol Heights, bristol Heights on the east side, right, northeast Northeast side.
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Okay, yeah, whatever, it's east of 35 there, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that's totally east East of something.
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Pablo and Brimoto, welcome, welcome we are in and you brought a special guest with you.
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Can you introduce us?
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Mr Ezekiel.
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You can probably hear his breathing.
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No, don't eat it.
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Don't eat it, dude.
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There's a lot of germs on that, all right.
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Well, welcome Ezekiel, we're glad you're here.
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And then also from the Cody Sparks band Senor Cody Sparks, yep, still here.
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Still here.
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Still here we're about to do a normal podcast where we take some of your questions.
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We do have some criticism about us being an elitist church.
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We do also have some criticism that we have too many people with their pants down outside and that they're smoking weed in the parking lot.
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But I thought we'd get to.
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You know that is part of being where we're at, but hey, we're so glad all of you are here and Pablo and Bree, we were just talking about several situations before we went on and we figured we'd bring it on air because it's fascinating stuff.
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We talked about polygamy, we were talking about adultery, we were talking about emotional affairs Is that grounds for divorce?
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So I kind of wanted to just leave it open to you guys.
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So we were all over the place.
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Which one is your primary topic?
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Probably adultery and grounds for divorce.
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Okay, here we go.
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So Jesus, whenever he was talking about adultery in Matthew 5, says if any one of you looks at a woman lustfully in his heart, he has committed adultery.
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Now I think what we talked about before correct me if I'm wrong is that for you you'd say that's grounds for divorce.
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Yeah Well, no, no, no no, no not looking at a woman Like that's what I'm saying like with the jesus's elevation yeah it's heart posture okay, heart but sure, but like but I'm talking about physically going and doing something, physical touch, I guess.
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Guess what I'm saying is if you're, if you're doing something, you're probably there in your heart correct so so but at what point?
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So at what point?
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Right, sure, sure, but at what point?
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So you're saying, if I'm looking at a woman lustfully in my heart and then I touch her, and what part?
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What touching then makes it adultery?
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That's grounds for divorce.
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And so I this is the part you know that, um, this gets into gray area, and so I wanted to hear what your thought was on that is like what makes it adultery.
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I think, going out of your way to pursue it, whether that to pursue it, whether that's physically, whether that's reaching out and having a conversation, it's more.
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It's left internal and has become external so if you saw, did you say that, if you looked at a woman with lustful intent, that's grounds for divorce?
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No so what if you go to a grocery store, you know you lust after a woman and then she goes to the other side of the grocery store and then you follow her because you want to look at her again but that's still like you're not physically doing something with you're following her, but like she's not involved in it at all.
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There's no physical touch.
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She's an innocent bystander physical touch is weird too, because like texting, for example, like if he's full on texting a girl for months, that's emotional.
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There's no physical, but she's also involved in that.
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It's not just he sees her and this is all happening within him and she has no idea.
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So there has to be involvement from the other party for you to consider.
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So is it?
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after one time.
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That's grounds for divorce.
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So one is like he goes, he sees a girl, he she texts him, he's like yo, what's up?
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And then he lusts after her in his heart and then he's like I don't want to do that again.
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Uh, is that grounds for divorce?
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saying hi yo what's up.
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Well, like when does the line get crossed At some point.
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If sex is not your line, then your line has got to be something else.
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And this is, I think, the part where I don't know if you can create a hard fast rule, which is why I've always said God's word, God's spirit, God's people.
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Which is why I've always said God's word, God's spirit, God's people, that when you run into anything like this that has a little bit of gray, because you could just be a complete jerk.
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You plant a woman in front of your husband Ah, he lusted.
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Finally, I'm free.
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There's a lot of marriages that they're just hoping that something like that happens so they can get out.
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So I think that there's a part of a heart posture on both sides, Right Of husband and wife that I think if you get to straight like here's the line and it's way before sex has happened, I think you're looking for the out as opposed to a way to reconcile, and I don't, and I don't think that's um helpful.
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Good point number one is god can restore anything.
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Sure he can forgive you.
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So that's where we start, like okay, how are we going to fix?
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It was out of the hardest of heart that god granted them a certificate of divorce, and so um so if you're out there, if you're looking for a reason just to stay biblically, I mean I'm like why are you even married right now in the first place?
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Yeah, if you're looking for a reason out, it's like how do I get out of this and keep it biblical?
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Right, you're.
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You're asking the wrong question, right, right, right you're, uh, holland.
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What do you think?
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give me your thoughts so the passage in matthew five.
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He says also talking to your microphone, thanks, from the production team.
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There you go.
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Is that better?
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so the passage in matthew five, uh, where he talks about um, if you've looked um lustfully or with lustful intent.
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He immediately after that he goes into grounds for divorce, and so you know the word he uses.
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There is, uh, pornea Greek word pornea, which can include adultery, can include prostitution, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, all the things that in the old Testament you know, the pornea code in the Leviticus, yeah, the old Testament law that were forbidden, yep, so it can include you know any of those things.
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It doesn't specify one in particular or anything, but you know what you're saying is those are all physical acts that you Physical sexual acts that you'd sexual, physical sexual acts that you do, but you're you're saying even just the um, something that could potentially lead to that should also be included in that list.
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Is that what you're saying?
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Like the texting or whatever you mean by the gray area, cause it is a gray area.
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Like obviously he, if he texts as a woman hi, how was your day?
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Like yeah, that's not necessarily being 100 faithful, but is that something to divorce him over?
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No, but it's something we need to explore and work on.
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Yeah, and I guess that's the part like the faithfulness.
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Yeah, why is that not faithful, is it?
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It's because, like what's your heart behind how's your day.
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You know how that.
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I mean like somebody could be high.
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How's your day for?
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him to be texting another woman right.
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And so then do you make it like texting another woman?
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That's the standard.
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No, right, that's where it's great, right.
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And I think that's the part where you need this is where, when you're making decisions like so huge, like like what god has joined together, let no man tear asunder, kind of like because it's so big uh, for to say, and this is where in our country, no fault divorce has really hurt us.
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I think we can kind of all agree.
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There is that because there's this thing of such as no fault divorce.
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Well, divorce is almost as easy as it was back in the old Testament of saying I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you If you're a man to a woman.
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Like that's sort of wild.
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And so when you bring this covenantal relationship into it and you have to go to the church which is your covenant coverage to say am I in the faith if I seek a divorce from this person because of the wounds and constant hurt I'm receiving and I need to protect myself and my children or whatever, I think that's a different conversation than the, than what's the line?
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Are you texting me or not?
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Um, and I think that's why I've okay.
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So when it comes to divorce.
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I feel like bringing the elders of the church in.
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Remember.
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This comes like Matthew 18.
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Like if at first you're like, hey, it's weird.
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When you text that person like that, oh my bad, I, that person like that, oh my bad, I didn't even think, think that that was a thing and you'll be like that's crazy, like you literally were hitting on them without hitting on them.
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And how could you not know that?
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And the guy is absolutely clueless, or maybe he's not.
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And then he repents and you've won him over, hallelujah.
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Or if he still does it.
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And then you bring in your people like, hey, this hurts when you text here's the, the text.
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That's really a painful thing.
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You keep pursuing this woman.
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That's not good.
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And he's like, oh my bad.
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And then he does it again.
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And then you bring in the elders of the church and then they go hey, what's going on?
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Why are you?
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You cannot talk to him or talk to her.
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If you do, you're you know, whatever, whatever.
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And then they get to make the decision for you, based on them wanting to protect you and being your covering and all that, that this person is abandoning the marriage.
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But you'd hope that there's a lot of steps in between.
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That hurt my feelings.
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That you texted that girl and divorce, right, I mean, I think that's where we want to go, yeah, and then I think the problem that you're not problem the.
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the question you're going like let's okay, let's get beyond texting is because there are some things that feel pretty hurtful, that are just one-time events, like, uh, a one-time makeout session or whatever, um, and then you go again.
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I think this is why bringing the elders in, if it's not a clear-cut to say like, and elders like were you drunk, were you whatever, whatever, and then like is this your intent, is your heart posture?
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Have you given up the faith and your marriage for whatever?
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And do you want, will you seek forgiveness and all of that, and I think otherwise we get back into the hey, let's just just cut it off, move forward.
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And I don't think that gets to the heart of like God's heart for us, although clearly God has made a provision for divorce in the case of adultery for a reason.
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So I think I think that's sort of an important factor.
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Holland, any other thoughts on that?
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I think, just the.
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I mean I think there's a difference between grounds for rebuke and church discipline and grounds for divorce.
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Like is obviously an unhealthy habit or pattern, something that is like an unfaithfulness of the heart that is leading to texting or pornography or whatever.
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Obviously, things that need to be confronted and issues of the heart that, like Chris is saying, go through Matthew 18, you know, eventually gets to the church elders, right, you're, you're doing church discipline to deal with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as grounds for divorce.
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And so I think, if you know, if, if it's in the realm of um struggling with pornography and inappropriate text conversations, to me I go that's definitely a church discipline issue but not necessarily a grounds for divorce issue, and that each case should be handled with patience, with wisdom, with bringing church leadership into the situation for counseling and care.
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Yeah, Cody, your thoughts on that?
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I think again, I think it goes what your intent behind messaging someone is, or talking to someone outside of marriage, for example.
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I didn't realize that I was doing how like I would go to play a show and I would meet people and I'd have I call them fan friends, because this was like a real deal that we had to like work through, but they would come around a lot and different.
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It didn't mean that I was attracted to them or like them, but they were fans that would come to shows and so I would end up becoming friends with them and we would talk.
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But the goal behind it was for them to bring their friends and their friends.
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So it was more like oh yeah, I'm just gonna it's again, it's wrong taking.
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I'm like I'm gonna take advantage of this one to tell that one and they're gonna bring their friends on are y'all coming to the?
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show it really is and then you don't think anything of it.
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So what was your intent behind it?
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Well, I wasn't doing it like for sexual reasons or to like quote unquote cheat.
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I was doing it to like fill people in.
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But I didn't realize that was that Aaron was like that bothered her because she didn't know.
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We never talked about it and I never thought it was really a big deal.
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So I mean, I don't think that you know me talking to them at that time.
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Aaron should have been like hey, that's, we should probably get divorced because you did that.
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Yeah.
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So tell me, why is this so personal for you guys?
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It was kind of interesting.
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As we were talking about it, this kind of got I feel the temperature rise and I was like man, we're really getting into some nuance here.
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What made this so personal?
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Go ahead, bro.
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Did you just call her bro?
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Yeah, that's grounds for divorce.
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We've always called each other bro and people.
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People are like why do you call your wife bro?
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I think because we started off as like really close friends but ended up getting married anyways that happens well in early in our relationship he did cheat three times was penetrative.
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One time was not, and it took years.
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He did cheat three times was penetrative.
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One time was not, um, and it took years.
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Well, you have heart wounds together.
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Yeah.
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Working through it and and this was before you were married, or when you're married before.
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All right.
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So before you're married, he cheated.
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Um and were you guys Christian then?
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I'm just sort of would probably say we were, but not really.
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Yeah, I'm with you Nowhere to where we are now.
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Yeah.
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Um, but point being, I said I've gone through this three, four times, I'm not going to go through it a fifth time.
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But now I'm realizing, okay, that might not be biblical, because to me it wasn't like oh, if you go have sex with someone else a fifth time, I'm out it's.
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If you do anything a fifth time with another woman who's not me, I'm not going through it again.
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So hearing that like oh well, that's not necessarily biblical like is kind of infuriating.
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Not saying I'm here looking for an out because I'm not, like I truly believe we're past this, it's not going to happen.
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Um, we're happily married.
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But the thought of potentially being put in that position again and having to just be like oh well, you know he's sorry again right, that's because you happen to you three times and you know the hurt behind it, and there's other people that it's happened to multiple times.
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But and I know that they're also being told hey, you don't really have grounds in this situation, because it was just a kiss or it was just a text.
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How are we supposed to?
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Yeah communicate to those people and encourage them to stay when they've been hurt so many times.
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Well, if you like.
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This is where forgiveness is not dating quality, uh like, and what I mean by that is, um, you don't like if, if you're with somebody before you're married and they do something like that, I'd be like I'm out Right Cause there's no covenant holding you together, and I think that's probably part of the reason why I'm not saying I don't want to get into why you you did that Like cause who knows, I'm not even gonna go there.
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But for another person, potentially the reason why you're just like, I mean, the relationship's serious but it's not like we're married.
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I really feel like some people could go to that sort of extreme in the dating relationship, but within the marriage relationship.
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That's why I always say the transactional nature of sexual relationships outside of marriage are so huge that you have got to constantly perform better than you last performed or else that person's going to leave, and so that's why you see that nature sort of come out in non married, not married, uh, outside of wedlock sexual relationship.
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Can you add on to that?
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Just jump on there somewhere?
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just say something to that, yeah sure yeah, I just think.
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Well, I mean, I just have noticed the transactional nature of non-married sex is so different than married sex that if someone gets upset with somebody because they aren't performing not even necessarily sexually, sexually, but like you, I don't know you relate to whatever.
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You made me look bad.
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You said something cutting in public and I was like, oh, that was offensive.
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I'm like, oh, that's grounds for me to have sex with somebody else because you did that to me.
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It's a very transactional nature.
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Here's what I would add yeah, it's a very transactional nature.
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Here's what I would add yeah, in outside of a Christian view of sexuality, marriage, a one flesh union, sex is going to be the way you see, like you said, transactional, the way you see anything else in life is.
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You know, what do I get out of it?
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Is it worth my time, you know?
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And so the Christian view of sex is about, you know, sowing into this one flesh union, rather than what can I get from the other person?
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It's, you know, how can I sow into something that you know that God has joined together as one, that is sacred, that is special, and so, um, yeah, I think it does make sense.
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There's a logical connection or correlation between a Christian view of marriage and sex and a worldly or secular view.
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That's going to be.
00:18:14.611 --> 00:18:27.305
You know, the Christian is going to view it completely differently and that it's not just a transaction, something to consume, but it's something to give of yourself soon, but it's something to give of yourself.
00:18:27.365 --> 00:18:30.940
Do you feel more confident, brie, now that you're married, or is that same fear lingering?
00:18:35.105 --> 00:18:37.509
um you can be honest?
00:18:37.829 --> 00:18:40.053
yeah, I mean I think, or you can lie.
00:18:40.133 --> 00:18:56.847
Either way, there's always there but, it's not as much as it was like it took five years for two years okay, we've been together for almost eight, so it took, I'd say, five years of getting to a point where I'm like okay, no, I there it is I trust wait how many years?
00:18:56.968 --> 00:18:59.031
five, yeah it.
00:18:59.031 --> 00:19:02.926
It is almost always five years from the d-day.
00:19:02.926 --> 00:19:09.950
D-day is discovery day, and when you talk about a fair recovery, it's five years to the days when it starts to get better.
00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:13.984
This, actually, it's 100 true um how cody how would you?
00:19:14.025 --> 00:19:25.252
know, because it does take five years I've researched it I mean, I mean, obviously I was lived this.
00:19:25.252 --> 00:19:43.982
Um, yeah, and it was funny because we always, I mean, let's say, we were pretty much what gris like 2019, well yeah, but yeah, january of 2020, and you're like it takes five years that's right that's right, and I mean really pretty much to the t.
00:19:44.463 --> 00:19:46.789
It was that like almost perfect.
00:19:46.789 --> 00:19:52.890
And I I've been texting the other day and I was like Holy moly, like this is pretty weird that that was it the whole time.
00:19:52.890 --> 00:20:10.083
So now that when we talk with guys that are have screwed up and done all this and they're like, yeah, I want to work it out, and blah, blah and are you sure, cause out and blah, blah, and are you sure?
00:20:10.083 --> 00:20:12.912
Because I'm just gonna let you know for you it's really gonna be brutal and you're just gonna have to take it if you want to make this work.
00:20:12.912 --> 00:20:14.115
And it's gonna take about five years if they guys really go.
00:20:14.135 --> 00:20:14.396
What I'm like?
00:20:14.396 --> 00:20:34.964
I'm not even a year five yet and I can tell you like I'm in three or four and it's still not good, because she might wake up having a dream about it or think about something, or you say something that you didn't even think twice about, that brought up that wound for her and we're off to the races again and you feel like it's day one all over again, right?
00:20:34.964 --> 00:20:44.984
So that's where it's like, man, if you guys aren't doing this together, I can't imagine being outside of the christian world trying to come back from an affair.
00:20:44.984 --> 00:20:46.406
There's like no way.
00:20:46.406 --> 00:20:55.933
It is because the earthly, the way that like the world views things, is oh, it's like everybody does it, right, so it's like no big deal, especially emotionally.
00:20:55.933 --> 00:20:59.517
Yeah, they're like oh, it's no big deal, everyone does it, so what's why not?
00:20:59.517 --> 00:21:03.868
Yeah, and it turns into the physical side of it and she's like man, wash your hands clean on it.
00:21:05.372 --> 00:21:05.613
All right.
00:21:11.442 --> 00:21:13.445
So you guys are pretty much healed from this then.
00:21:13.445 --> 00:21:15.647
Oh, like Cody said, sometimes a dream will come up.
00:21:15.647 --> 00:21:19.652
Like I said, I'm still in contact with one of the girls because part of the healing process is.
00:21:19.652 --> 00:21:21.094
I went and had a conversation with her.
00:21:21.354 --> 00:21:21.773
Oh, wow.
00:21:21.913 --> 00:21:23.536
Yeah, she was actually at her wedding.
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:25.703
What, yeah, so you invite her to had a conversation with her?
00:21:25.703 --> 00:21:26.347
Oh, wow, yeah, um, she was actually at her wedding.
