Transcript
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
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So glad all of you are joining us, as recording live here in austin texas and with me, is none other than the very astute, very smart techie of the.
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What is it?
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Are you like a forensics police person?
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just a data analyst data analyst.
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okay, so very smart data analytics guy, and that's Jordan Smith.
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Welcome, jordan.
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Howdy Thank you.
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So, jordan, we are working with a couple questions which are super hard, and I can't wait to one ask you and then see if this is ever anything you ever think about, all right, I mean, I think about a lot of weird stuff about the Bible.
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All right, here we go, here we go.
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This is a Bible question.
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Do we know anything about the saints that were raised in Matthew 27, 52 to 53?
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Let me just read that real quick.
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So after 51 says behold, the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
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The earth shook, rocks were split, the tombs also were open and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs.
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What does fallen asleep mean?
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And what happened to the saints that were raised?
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What is speculated to have happened to them?
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And you would think there would be more accounts of them mentioned.
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All right, that is a great question, and I think the problem is we don't know and I know that's like a punt, because this event is nowhere explained anywhere else in scripture.
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So the best we can do is speculate.
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Any thoughts from you.
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First off, is this something you ever think about and does it have any actual make a difference in your life?
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No, I mean, I'm just remembering those verses because they weren't on the top of my head, uh.
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But falling asleep means dying.
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Yeah, pretty sure.
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And I think I asked you right before this what is the holy city, because I thought that could mean heaven.
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But what did you?
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what jerusalem is, usually what it means or it could be, it's okay.
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So what you're saying is it's in heaven and the dead were raised, are now in heaven.
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Oh, I don't know.
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I was just Whenever I read holy city.
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I mean that could mean different things.
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Yeah, I think it just means.
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Jerusalem.
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I think falling asleep means those were dead.
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I do think it is that some people were raised to life just like Lazarus means those were dead.
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I do think it is that some people were raised to life just like lazarus.
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So you have I don't know how many it was, and this is where it gets challenging.
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Does that mean that you know how, like you know, ring the bell back in the day, they would have a lot of people that when they exhumed coffins there were scratches on the top of the, because they weren't actually dead, uh, and they literally had just fallen asleep, and so it could be that.
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But it could be that they wanted to show resurrection power in the death of Jesus, matthew writing it and God obviously inspiring it, and so there were literally dead people who were raised and were saints, much like Lazarus, who had believed, and they were raised and they went to the city, showed themselves and were on that.
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The other part of this that— Hold on, can you imagine that?
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Just like dead people used to know me, like hey, what's up?
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I'm back.
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I'd be kind of freaked out, or would you?
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I mean, they didn't know much about resurrection back then.
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Right yeah, but I'm—okay.
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Here's the part that I'm not that I'm skeptical, because I'm not actually.
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I actually think this is very possible.
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I just think that people once the miracle part of excitement only lasts for about 20 minutes, and then you're like man I got a story you should meet bob and then after you hang around bob for a while and they're just like they were before, you forget that they were raised from the dead.
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I know, know that seems crazy, but I've seen guys that were in combat like literally felt they were gonna die.
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And they come back to the States and they don't live like they were just about to die, they live like everybody else.
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So I think it wears off.
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The miracle aspect wears off over time and so I don't think it's that far fetched Like okay, here's what I mean by that.
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We have people who have near death experiences today and we're not like shocked about it.
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We're like, yeah, you know, some guy had a near death experience and they told the story and I'm sure it was great.
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Like we, you know, we have like, um, we did the series, what's after ATX?
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We had a bunch of those stories like people local to Austin were literally brain dead, raised from the dead.
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But there was so much other tumult going on and I'm going to use that word tumult, s-a-t word that was going on at that time, so it probably got overlooked in the hubbub and everything that was happening that people were just like, yeah, I guess that guy raised from the dead, okay, cool story.
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And enough people were like, yeah, that happened.
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And other people were like, of course it happened, jesus rose from the dead.
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How amazing is that?
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I think what people focused on wasn't the other people who were raised from the dead.
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Like, lazarus was raised from the dead, but he doesn't get near the press that Jesus gets.
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Anyway.
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Yeah, I guess so, but I think they asked what happens to them.
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I mean, I assume they just live their life and die.
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It's not like they're immortal.
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Yeah, yeah, I don't think that they were part of the immortals and they're still around today.
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Yeah, I definitely think that they end up dying eventually and I think what they're going why aren't more accounts of the mentioned I think it's just for that reason is that they eventually died anyway.
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They eventually got old, they eventually were normal people.
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Lazarus eventually died.
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You would think that Lazarus would be like where's the book of Lazarus?
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Where's that book?
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Where's the publicity that that guy gets?
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I think that that's the part of the struggle of.
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For me is that you don't have, I don't know, you don't have that story.
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Anyway, does that make sense?
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You don't have that story.
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Anyway, does that make sense?
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Yeah, it makes sense.
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I mean, a lot of miracles happen in our lives that we can tend to just forget about over time.
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I mean going back to the Exodus thing we're talking about right now.
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They saw the Red Sea parted and they're like nah, they saw God and they're like get him away from me.
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He's scary, but I mean, what's it?
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40 days later, them away from me is scary but I mean, what's it?
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40 days later they're having an orgy and worshiping a calf.
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So you know Right.
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I do think.
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Here's the thing that I have sort of I don't know become accustomed to.
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A pastor said this a long time ago and maybe 20 years ago, and I heard it and he said and I don't remember who it was, but it was just stuck with me Miracles are baby rattlers for babies.
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Remember who it was, but it was just stuck with me Miracles are baby rattlers for babies.
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Like you need a crazy miracle because you can't see providentially God's hand, and so I don't know, I just I like that, because if you're needing a miracle, you're either I don't want to say weak in faith, but you already are a believer.
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Because if you see a miracle, a miracle that brings somebody, it's not the miracle that brings somebody to faith, like somebody raised from the dead, Because if you're a skeptic, you're going to be like, ah, that guy wasn't dead anyway.
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Well, I mean, like, so I remember you saying, because I asked you this before but like, what solidified your faith?
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And you said all of your experiences over time, right so?
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And you said all of your experiences over time, right so, like, how does that differ than miracles for you?
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Yeah, so God's faithfulness over time.
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But he opened my eyes to see him and then you know, apologetics only goes to further my faith that I already have.
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You know I send stuff to my atheist friend Charlie all the time and he'll send me back like 10 things or just like that from the agnostic or atheist point of view, and so it does nothing for his lack of faith, in fact probably further exacerbates his unbelief, because more of course you would find a whatever, whatever just like somebody is not going to convince me of not being a christian.
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Um, the only way you could do that is if you know you found jesus's bones somewhere, and even then they'd have to be historically reliable.
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And even then I don't know, because the there's too much evidence to suggest that jesus rose from the dead for me.
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But that's because I have a heart that can believe.
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Right, I mean, I would assume if you saw someone claiming they found Jesus' bones, you would just discredit it Exactly.
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I'd be like nah, what else you got, which I know sounds terrible.
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Also, leviticus 23, 10-14 describes the first fruits of the harvest and where you would wave a grain offering to symbolize how the harvest that we're about to take in here's the first fruits, and so it could have been that those were the first fruits of the resurrection.
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Yeah, sure, maybe you know.
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Okay, anyway, because that happened.
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I don't know at the Passover and so you kind of got that.
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So it could be right.
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It could be.
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I know that's probably like this person's answer isn't fully awesome, but it could be All right.
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How about this one Between Christ's death and resurrection, where was he?
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Some say he descended into hell.
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What's the difference between hell, h, sheol and the lake of fire?
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Are they the same?
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Oh gosh, okay, that's a fun one.
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Yeah, it's, there's so many layers of this.
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But um, hell, uh, okay, hell and hades.
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You know, like hades and sheol generally are the old testament version of hell, place of the dead, but the place the dead still was separated between what we know from, like whenever the story of Lazarus and the rich man, where Lazarus, the guy that's poor and has all these sores, he goes to the bosom of Abraham but he can see across the cavern to the dude that's burning in a fire and he's like, hey, send a warning to somebody to let them know that don't be like me.
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And he's like, even if somebody rose from the dead and told him that they wouldn't believe it, which is sort of the ironic part of that.
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So you're saying those were two different places.
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So sheol was one place.
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Uh, I guess hades would be the negative version, but it's a Greek word.
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Sheol is the but can Sheol and Hades be the same place?
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It's kind of like.
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Yeah, it's like Are you saying that one was like the saved and one was the damned?
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Like Wells, Branch and Rundberg are both Austin, Right, Sheol and wherever you know, Abraham's bosom, Abraham's bosom and then Hades, the three things all, all coexisting.
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But there's a cavern in between Abraham's bosom and the Hades, where um the rich man was, I got you.
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Yeah, so, yeah.
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So the lake of fire that's reserved for the devil and his angels, that's futuristic, which is different.
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But I also think all those that don't believe join him there, which is sort of let me pull that up because I know that could be a little bit challenging for that one.
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I think that's what's happened.
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Have you heard different things on these?
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personally, yeah, I mean, I kind of have the same philosophy as you, or that's what's happened.
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Have you heard different things on these?
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Personally, yeah, I mean, I kind of have the same philosophy as you, or that's what's been dictated to me.
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It was just Sheol was kind of a graveyard, but more Old Testament before Jesus' resurrection, Right.
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So that's kind of really all I know about that.
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I mean, as far as where people are in hell, I mean I don't know if they go down the Dante's Inferno route or- what that's not bad.
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I mean, dante's Inferno kind of gives you the view that there is layers or levels of hell, and I do think that that would be true, because we know that in Revelation 19, you know, I saw the beast and the king and the kings of the earth, and an army is assembled to do battle with the one who rode the horse, with his army.
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Now, the beast was seized and along with him, the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf, signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
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Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
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The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh.
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Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding his hand the key of the abyss and a huge chain he dragged.
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He seized the dragon, the ancient servant who was the devil and Satan, and tied him up for a thousand years.
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Okay, blah, blah, blah, satan.
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Then, now, when the thousand years are finished, satan will be released from his prison, will go out to see the nation, the four corners of earth, the Gog and Magog, to bring them out to battle.
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There is numerous of the grains of the sand and the earth.
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They went up on the broad plain of the earth and circled the camp of the saints and beloved city.
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Fire came down from heaven, devoured them completely and there they'll be, tormented day and night forever.
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Which?
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There you go.
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Then you've got the great white throne.
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Then I saw a white throne, the one who was seated on it.
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Earth and heaven fled from his presence and no place was found for them.
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I'm reading the net version, sorry.
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Then I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it from his presence.
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Earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them.
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And I saw the dead, great and small, standing for the throne, and the books were open.
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Another book was open, which was the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done, and the sea gave up the dead who were in it.
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Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and they were judged each one of them according to what they had done.
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Okay, so then you've got.
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So this is Revelation 20, wrapping it up, and this is where I think the question they're trying to figure out where they're going to go.
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So you've got All unbelievers, immaterial like they're, literally, their soul goes to Sheol or Hades.
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Then their death, they go to the grave, okay.
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Then they're resurrected at the end of millennium judgment, the great white throne, and then they're all thrown into the lake of fire, which is where they go.
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So death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
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This is the second death, the lake of fire.
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And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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So that's where everybody goes.
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However, you are judged according by what you do.
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So therefore, there is levels of hell based upon that, and so Dante's in front of them.
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I mean, I wouldn't agree with that, necessarily, you wouldn't agree with that.
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Go ahead.
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I mean, it just says they're judged according to their actions, right?
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Like?
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Couldn't that just translate to they're judged according to sin?
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Like they all go to the same place, but they're all judged for their actions?
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Yeah, okay, but.
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I mean, is that the only verses where they get that there's levels of hell?
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Yeah, let me pull that up for you.
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I think that's a great question.
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So obviously Dante's Inferno is where we get the levels of hell talk, but it's so when you talk about someone's sin is worse than others like.
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So, for example, sodom and Gomorrah are considered more righteous than the people of Capernaum, so clearly there's a different level of torment for them.
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So then there's levels of sin.
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Yes, so some sins are worse than others.
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Don't people try to say the opposite?
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Okay man, this is fun yeah, so here's, here's where.
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So, um, okay, I'm gonna try and do this as best I can, because this is the part that I I'm gonna try and make it simple can wait.
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So it takes the same amount of blood, like one drop of Jesus' blood covers your sin and my sin.
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So there's no difference in the amount of sin that you do as far as what you can be.
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So the reason why we say the amount of sin there's no difference in sin, sin doesn't matter in terms of what God sees.
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It's because when you're saved, he no longer sees you by your sin.
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So your sin is judged or is imputed to Jesus equally.
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So Jesus didn't need to like suffer like five hours for one guy and like two hours for you and 30 seconds for me and half a second for you.
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Know other people that are really, really good.
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It takes the same amount of blood to save you as it does me.
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So that's where sin is equal, in the sense that it doesn't prevent you from getting to heaven because Jesus died for you.
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Now there is consequence to sin, both on earth.
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So for saved people, there's consequences to your sin, right?
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So if you are a person that, let's just say, had sex before marriage and had a bunch of kids, you're going to deal with multiple families and that's challenging and difficult.
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That's a consequence for your sin, like the family aspect of that If you got some disease and you're going to deal with that, that's a consequence of that.
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So all sin is not equal in that sense on earth.
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Well, I mean, does God impute consequences?
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Are you saying they're just natural to what happens with the flow of that?
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Both Romans.
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1 says that, like, for example, homosexuality is a result of sin Not necessarily sin that you did, but the result of idolatry, which is sort of a wild thought Like how is that even possible?
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I think our culture is sort of screaming that right now, and that's why the result of sin is watching an entire culture exchange the glory of God for the created things or the goodness of God, the ways of God, for lies.
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Okay, but pause on that, because I think we're going.
00:18:08.542 --> 00:18:11.971
Are we on like levels of hell we're talking about?
00:18:11.971 --> 00:18:15.445
So all sin is equal in God's eyes?
00:18:15.445 --> 00:18:19.701
When it comes to your salvation, all sin is not equal in God's eyes.
00:18:19.701 --> 00:18:30.207
If you are not saved because that is not, and God is just right the punishment fits the crime and so you get what your sins deserve.
00:18:32.371 --> 00:18:32.971
Yeah.
00:18:33.153 --> 00:18:34.013
I guess, so that makes sense.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:38.731
I mean I wish they would have given us a list of, you know, top-ranking sins, or something like that.
00:18:39.882 --> 00:18:44.992
Well, I think you probably could gather what the top-ranking sins are.
00:18:44.992 --> 00:19:03.255
I guess my point there is that, let's say you're Adolf Hitler, your time in hell is going to be worse than I don't know someone who didn't believe in Jesus but gave their life to helping the poor or something Right.
00:19:03.255 --> 00:19:11.846
They still probably help the poor out of a selfish motive of I want to be my own God, right, right, but they so.
00:19:11.846 --> 00:19:29.281
Man idolatry is worse, so I don't know I think that's a part of how much revelation they receive, because you get judged based on the amount of revelation you have as well, which, again going back to, I've said this many times that you receive, your punishment is built upon the revelation you received.
00:19:31.926 --> 00:19:37.222
Okay, well, I mean, if God chooses certain people, then how does that make any sense?
00:19:37.222 --> 00:19:39.411
God has to choose who he saves right.
00:19:39.411 --> 00:19:41.237
So what does it mean?
00:19:41.278 --> 00:20:04.063
like revelation, are you saying people know, deny that this goes back to pharaoh, right when he, the more that's revealed to pharaoh of god's goodness and grace and the more he digs in, to say I choose my pantheon of gods, I, or the more that you reveal of god, of like his grace and his goodness, and someone shares the gospel with you.
00:20:04.063 --> 00:20:08.948
Someone shares the gospel and you're like nah, I'm good, I want to do what I want to do, I'm going to trust the gods of this world.
00:20:08.948 --> 00:20:14.034
Then there is more knowledge, so therefore there is more.
00:20:14.034 --> 00:20:17.057
More was revealed to you, so therefore the punishment is greater.
00:20:17.057 --> 00:20:21.507
Like that's why he says hey, capernaum, woe to you, capernaum.
00:20:21.507 --> 00:20:27.327
If the miracles that were done in you were done in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes.
00:20:27.327 --> 00:20:31.732
Meaning greater revelation, greater punishment.
00:20:31.732 --> 00:20:33.798
That's where I'm going with that.
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:35.805
I mean unsaved people.
00:20:35.805 --> 00:20:37.609
Can't repent on their own, though, right.
00:20:38.301 --> 00:20:44.512
Right, but that doesn't mean that they weren't given opportunity, and so, therefore, they miss out.
00:20:44.534 --> 00:20:45.559
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:50.707
No, it does make sense because, God is gracious and he has compassion.
00:20:50.707 --> 00:20:51.489
He has compassion.
