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260: Pastor Plek and Catie Sas are joined by Holland Greig of Eastside Community Church this week to recap Sunday’s sermon. After a brief summary of his sermon, Pastor Plek asks Holland what he thinks the Order of Salvation is and why that’s important when we think about salvation, sanctification, and regeneration. They also answer some questions from our listeners.
Faith, Culture, and Everything in Between.
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Speaker 1:
Welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast. I am so glad that all of you are joining us as recording live right now, on whatever platform you're watching we are presenting, and we're super excited that you are joining us for a little exis 19 sermon recap, and with me in studio is none other than Mrs Katie Sass, aka Ava's mom. How are you?
Speaker 2:
doing great.
Speaker 1:
And then also back from back in the day, we have our very first church planner, Holland Greg, joining us from the east side. Welcome Holland.
Speaker 3:
Thanks, chris, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:
That is definitely holland. In a nutshell, how did you get in this? All right, here we go. But I wanted to talk about just a recap of exis 19, which I'm pretty pumped about because it has so much, I think, contextual, salvific understanding for us modern day Christians, as it's like a great visual of how salvation works, and so we're going to talk about that a little bit. But the big premise that we really wanted to sort of have everyone wrap their mind around was this idea being set apart. Now, katie, have you ever been set apart for anything?
Speaker 2:
What does that even mean?
Speaker 1:
Have you ever been thought of as a distinct person? Have you been a part of a distinct club, anything that would make you different from the average person?
Speaker 2:
Well, in college I started the Art Institute's very first fashion club and I was voted president.
Speaker 1:
So that's huge. No, I do remember these days. Holland, do you remember those days?
Speaker 3:
I mean, those were those early days of Wells branch, yeah, when I used to like give me food to get me to come to things.
Speaker 1:
That's right we did. We did give you a lot of food to come to things. So how are you set apart? Well, talk to me about as the fashion club of the Art Institute. Sorry.
Speaker 3:
Is that club still going today, by the way.
Speaker 2:
No, when I left it, it did. Yeah, I understand how that goes. It was great.
Speaker 1:
But how were you set apart, how did you decide? Or how were you set apart as the fashion club girl?
Speaker 2:
Oh, I just tried to dress better than everyone. Was that hard?
Speaker 1:
No, no, not for you, because you are like I mean, look at you right now. The earrings are really working for you. I love the hair. You have a great look going.
Speaker 2:
I only look like this, because you changed the time and that meant less time for me to work out, and so I was like, well, fine, I guess I just won't work out and I'll just spend 30 minutes getting ready.
Speaker 1:
Oh well, we should be very honored by that, and we are of course so. So, yeah, what about you? In what way have you ever been set apart, if there's anything you can think of like fraternity at A&M were you a fraternity person.
Speaker 3:
Why are you laughing, katie? You got something to say, what's?
Speaker 2:
going on with that Hauling at a fraternity.
Speaker 1:
Wait, why that statement? He couldn't see Holland and you just don't see him like oh, he's not a frat dude.
Speaker 3:
I'm not, it's true. All right. So what happened in college? I was in an elite dodgeball team, the burninators. We were champions my freshman sophomore year, so we were set apart in that way of being, you know, excelling athletically in a challenge in sport like dodgeball and yeah All right.
Speaker 1:
Well, okay, there are others of us that were set apart by being in the military, which is an exciting thing. You had a different uniform, different language, different haircut, and that's kind of how I experienced being set apart. And what God is doing with Israel in Exodus 19 is he's reminding them how they are a distinguished nation, set apart for his purposes, as predestined, really, in the Abrahamic covenant. And then he has a couple of sayings here which I just really want to read off for us, which I just thought was so great. He says you yourselves as God, speaking through Moses, you yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, how I bore you on eagle's wings and brought you to myself. Now, therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasure possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. And that term, holy nation is means set apart or distinct. And I think sometimes, when we hear the word holy, we think what do we think? We think perfect, maybe, but holy is, although it is like righteous in many ways, but it's a set apart for a particular use in this, in this case, very sacred. So I thought that was just a powerful thing that God had plans for Israel, and so, therefore, this entire thing of bringing all Israel up to Mount Sinai was to help them understand how distinct they were, and they're about to be given the law which would set them apart from all other nations as a way that they conducted themselves in a very honorable way that honored God and each other.
Speaker 2:
So the only thing I remember about your sermon is the gun, the, the, the water pellet story, the gun story. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah that part which was all about God wanting to spend time with us.
Speaker 1:
Yes, cause that, cause he is. That's the blessing part. You shall be my treasured possession. I'm glad you heard something that's good. Katie always keeps as a preacher. Having Katie around keeps you right on.
Speaker 2:
I'm not like intentionally trying to criticize.
Speaker 1:
No, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:
I'm just saying that was like one of the big things that I got from your sermon. So now you talking about this, I'm like wait what did that story?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so remember. So, austin's my son. And so to explain that story, cause, if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught. All right, so here we go. So, so what happened was see, what happened was my, my son, who is a part of my family. He didn't choose to be part of my family. I chose him, in a sense, with Adrian. We chose to have him. And then part of it is like hey, if you obey me, you are going to receive a blessing and you shall be my treasured possession. And so we were given, we were given these jailblasters. Are you familiar with jailblasters? Of course, of course he is. Do you know what jailblasters are? No, you have a daughter, all right. So, yeah, so jailblasters are like better than squirt guns and better than BB guns, because they hit like BB guns but they don't leave a mark.
Speaker 2:
They sting, they sting.
Speaker 1:
They sting, yeah, and they're not like paint guns. There are paintball guns that you know are messy and so, anyway, it's super great. So we have all these gel blasters four of them and three of them work. And of course, my oldest son, his, doesn't work. And so I was like, hey, why? And he's like I want to take it apart and figure it out. I was like, hey, why don't we take it apart? Let's do some YouTubeing and let's take it apart and see if we can figure out what's messed up with it, and then we'll try and put it back together. Well, if you know anything about gel blasters, lots of teeny little parts and you start unscrewing things and there's screws all over the place and then there's springs all over the place and I was like, oh man, we'll never get this thing back together. But with enough YouTube instruction, after several hours of work and very much having to calm ourselves down at the anger and frustration at pieces of plastic and springs, we finally got it back together. And it still didn't work and, of course, right Turns out, I think we need a new lithium battery. Anyway, but after that, about 30 minutes after that, austin walked up to me and he's like hey, dad, hey, thanks for doing that with me. And I was like who are you? You know? I mean like who thanks their dad for spending time with them, and I was really grateful for that and that's what it means to be a treasure possession. So he's adopted, he's saved or a part of the family he is. He obeyed my will and then I treasured him and he felt that his response was to love me back and so that sort of was like the picture of how like and he does it way better than me, he's a way better kid than I was. At that age I've been like gosh, how come this thing doesn't work. You stink, you know like I might have gone that route and he didn't do that, which I was really grateful for. But we love God because he first loved us and sometimes and I think here's, if you focus on the gel blaster and not on the intimacy with God, you don't realize the blessing you've gotten to spend time with him.
Speaker 2:
The blessing isn't the gel blaster. The blessing is the time spent with the Lord.
Speaker 1:
And I think, as Christians and I think this is where I think I made the case with my Israeli friend who said this culture is and he was like I said he was trying to be very nice, he's like, your culture is very different. It's all based on entertainment. And I was like whatever do you mean he's like? And he could tell I was like sort of like you know, taking a bag, I got what it is Like. No, no, it's really great because it's way better. Like we only watch American shows. And then he's like but everything you do has to be entertaining. Like your whole life is about movies, music, sports, entertainment. Like you revolve your life around the next entertaining thing. And I thought about it and I was like, okay, yeah, you're not wrong. And then I was like what do you revolve your life around? And he's like, you know, like food, and you know it was just and he was in a tech. He's a tech guy, global tech person, that chose to live in America because things in Israel weren't super great, and so he got here two months before the whole Hamas attack happened. Anyway, it was sort of wild. I love that perspective because I think, when it comes to God, we want God to entertain us, we want more gifts, we want more things, we want more stuff, and I think that's the part that I think is missing in our relationship with him is we can get focused on what's in it for me, has there ever been a part of your life where and I think what's really cool about you, katie you came to faith at 20. And so I don't know. I'm sure there is, but was there anything that you were like looking for God? Hey, I will. I don't want the intimacy with God, I want the whatever. Was there a part of your life that was like that?
Speaker 2:
I'm not. I'm not trying to sound like oh, I'm like whole other than that. But I remember like the first couple of years of being a believer I was like a sponge and like that's, all I wanted was to learn about God, learn about the Bible. Like I didn't even want to date, not to say I didn't have a couple of crushes, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 1:
The problem is, you got both Holland and me here. We remember you.
Speaker 2:
I know, you know. So let's not go down that train, let's stay on the path. So I, I just remember, like wanting God.
Speaker 1:
And that's that. So that's, I think, what's really beautiful about that, katie, is that's the true response of worship. And some people who come to God with a felt need financial, relational and then once they get that, once they're like if I come to God, it'll fix the felt need and they focus on the felt need. And the felt needs not bad. A felt need should drive you to a deeper spiritual need, like for you, like, I think, when you, if we remember correctly, remember it was like relational for you, you wanted a boyfriend or a husband or whatever, and then it went from that to Jesus and that became your overarching life.
Speaker 2:
does that was my passion.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it was, and I would say it still is. Yeah, and, and so what about you? Ha, like, has there ever been a part of your life? Or like God, if you just got me this and then the this didn't come through and then you had to settle For just God? Is that, has that been a part of your, your walk with God at all?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I think Like, as I reflect back on I was similar in that, you know, I came to faith at 19. So similar age and life stage and Very similar also in the sense of, just like man, I was just soaking it all up. I just want to learn. I want to learn about the Bible, I want to learn about God. Was it mean to follow Jesus? I was hungry for it, but I was also still kind of deeply entrenched in a relationship that I was in, or wanting a relation like before I came to Christ. My view on life was I Want to. But it goes back to some of the struggles I had my family growing up. My parents got divorced when I was in middle school. A lot of that, a lot of the struggles there, had to do with finances and my dad struggling with alcohol, and so there's some things that I was like okay, when I'm an adult, I don't want to drink because I've seen the damage that it can do. I want to have a stable job so that I don't struggle with finances with my family. I want to be, you know, I want to be in a, be a good husband, have a healthy home, like all good things. But like I came into Christianity Having to totally reframe how I think about life. Right, so I was. I was very desperate still to Like I want to get married, I want to have a family, I want to have a good job and stuff, and and yet I was planning on being an engineer. So, studying to be an engineer felt the Lord calling me toward ministry and church planting. There's a lot of money in engineering a lot of a lot of money in church planning like you're rolling in it now. I'm right, right, you know, felt the Lord calling me down a path that was like this feels way less Financially secure, and so I I don't, you know and I chose to obey God, but I had to wrestle with that. Do I, you know, what is my treasure? Is my treasure God himself, or is it the things that I'm hoping God will give to me? Yeah, financial security, a healthy marriage and a family and stuff like that. And so, uh, yeah, had a relation, had relationships in college and shortly after college that you know Having to come to terms with. Okay, this is not a relationship that is gonna lead to marriage, right, and that being like, oh man, I'm losing something that I wanted so badly. So, anyway, definitely had to come to grips with the reality of choosing God over things that I had long desired, I guess yeah, no, that's good, I think I had the same.
Speaker 1:
It's kind of fun hearing your guys stories. I think mom was the same way. Uh, I think my big, I think, when people will ask me, what do you want to be when you grow up? I go rich, there you go. And uh, that was it. That was weird, uh, and then once God captured my heart, I was like only thing I want to do is do more of the sharing of the gospel to Like to further, and I, the richness came with the time, with God and and just experiencing his grace, and so the same thing that happened to you and same thing I'm you happen to me and it was just a beautiful like Intensity of wanting to worship more and more. Okay, so I love that aspect. Can we talk about? I'm gonna do some latin? Can we do some latin? Let's do it. Uh, ordo salutis, can you tell me what that means? Order of salvation. Nice job. You know what?
Speaker 3:
even I know I didn't go to dts.
Speaker 2:
He didn't go. He went to a.
Speaker 1:
He went to, like you know, there's like real seminary and then there's like the minor leagues and he still knows what ordo I'm teasing, that's so terrible, I don't mean that at all. But yeah, let's talk about ordo salutis because I, as I was reading this text and as I was, the thought of the thought of, like the order of salvation came to mind, and I think this is because I do think this is a picture of Salvation in many ways. But I do feel like there is a struggle. And we talked about the order of salvation and I'd love to get Katie's uh response to this, because I think what it feels like sometimes it might not necessarily what it is Theologically. And let me sort of explain um, the way that I sort of always viewed this is that you know, and I think a lot of people do this you obey first, then you get saved, but clearly that like I'm gonna obey and when do what God tells me to do, and now I'm saved. But that's not how it works. And let's walk through what, uh, the ordo salutis is, and then let's see if we can see it here In this text, and I'm gonna do my best to kind of that. So walk us through the order of salutis that we sort of see, and I know there's what a many different Views on this, but let's just take let's take uh Hollins view because we like him and he's really reformed right ahead.
Speaker 3:
Wait, do you want to talk about the full-on deal, Not just like what you see in exodus?
Speaker 1:
but well, I want to see. I want to see the full-on deal and I want to see the exodus pieces that we can pull out.
Speaker 3:
Okay, yeah, I mean the thing that we were talking about earlier. It goes in the the order of election calling regeneration, conversion, modification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. All right, it's a bunch of asians In there and I think some of these, you know, some of these happen Hard to say, this one after the other, some of them simultaneous, but uh, in general that's the order.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so essentially, like what happens when you're saved, like how does that? And this is where you know how we and I know this is where katie will roll her eyes but we've talked about enough. I think you can hang with me on this one. We've talked about superlapsarianism versus infralapsarianism, and you've just there it is, and I think that's kind of what we're doing here. But god Chooses you and that's election, like he has chosen before the foundation of the earth Universe. All that, if he is going to save you, yeah, all right. So then there's the calling, where he reaches out through god's word. It could be you hearing the gospel.
Speaker 2:
It opens your eyes.
Speaker 1:
Like yeah, or at least the call, which is if you, are we not there yet?
Speaker 2:
not not.
Speaker 1:
so Okay, I'm like regeneration, yeah, but the thing that's nice is that if we, if, if you could hear god's call, it's irresistible grace, so you're gonna respond to him. If he's calling for you, god gets what he wants. Then the regeneration happens here, where your heart, you get a new heart, and this is the part that I always struggle with. To be honest with you, is it regeneration first or is it conversion first? So and I know this, we've talked about this. Yeah, I always kind of thought like I have to have the, the ability to believe first, because regeneration sounds like action to me it is action, but it's action on God's behalf to us. So it's God being born again.
Speaker 3:
You know, it's like how Jesus said like those who have not been born again cannot even see the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:
Okay, so he puts in your heart. He puts in your heart.
Speaker 3:
Causes you, or first Peter, he causes us to be born again and then you have faith From that place of regeneration. Our eyes are open. So you know we're spiritually dead. Regeneration means we go from being dead to alive. Our eyes are opened, our ears are opened and from that place we can see the beauty and the glory of Jesus. We respond in faith. So you know, if you think about conversion, is turning your life toward Jesus right, putting your faith in Jesus. How can a spiritually dead person do that? So you gotta be regenerated first and then, upon regeneration, right, you see Jesus for who he is, loving, savior, merciful, forgiving, and you are drawn to turn your life toward him.
Speaker 1:
I've always sort of seen this, in my view, is as two sides of the same coin. You're like what happens first, or does it happen, but to your point, regeneration is he makes you born again.
Speaker 3:
Then you're like oh, I believe, and so yeah, I would see like repentance and faith being very similar as, like you know, two sides of the same coin, so the regeneration is him saying hey, you're born again.
Speaker 1:
And then the next step is I now have the ability to believe, I have now the ability to repent. Yeah, that's my stance on it, and I think I agree with you. All right, so Whoa.
Speaker 3:
Last time we debated this you didn't do it, I know.
Speaker 1:
I know Like maybe I was thinking you were defining regeneration differently, so I think we might be on the same page here. So it's not quite as exciting. That's big yeah. So when you look at this story here, the regeneration part is in Exis 19, verse four, how I bore you on eagle's wings and brought you to myself. So he makes you born again, he regenerates you, he takes you to himself, and you don't really have a part in that other than receiving it, right exactly. But there is a piece in here that there is, and this is where they took shelter under the blood of the lamb. And this again, this is where it's a big picture. And so what did they do? They did something. They did put the blood of the lamb on their doorpost, not maybe fully understanding the wrath of God that was coming that would be saved from. But it was God's choosing. He elected them, he calls out to them to do this thing. They then put the blood of the lamb up and then they're led out, and that's how the nation is birthed. So regeneration. I guess that's kind of how I'm viewing this.
Speaker 3:
I would agree in an analogous way.
Speaker 1:
I don't think it applies to their purpose.
Speaker 3:
Or their personal salvation, because we know not all Israel was saved.
Speaker 1:
Right, and where do we know that from?
Speaker 3:
From the Old Testament narratives of people who were hardened in their hearts. From Hebrews, chapter three and four, that speaks about it. From the Gospels, where Jesus identifies Israelite leaders especially who had hardened their hearts, were whitewashed tombs, root of vipers, those kind of things so who were part of Israel outwardly and yet rejected Jesus and I like not all Romans 9.6,.
Speaker 1:
But it is not as though the word of God has failed, for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all children of Abraham, and not all are children of Abraham because they are. I was offspring, but through Isaac shall your offspring be named. It's essentially like there are people in Israel and we know this from the mixed multitude that leaves Egypt that there were Egyptians involved in there, people maybe syncretists, people that bring in their own things, and they're the ones that kind of cause a lot of rebellion. They're the ones that say, hey, what about a golden calf? Or at least I assume that of course Aaron's one that makes it. So there's a lot of issues that come in there. So I think you're right. It's in an analogous, maybe a picture way, but not in a personal salvation way.
Speaker 3:
A foreshadowing of salvation, showing a picture. I think some principles are true there. If one, god, initiates the salvation right. God chose them, he rescued them, he calls them to obedience. So I think there's principles that are true there, but I don't think you can say that they were all personally regenerated when. God brought them out of Egypt.
Speaker 1:
Clearly, and the reason why they weren't all personally regenerated.
Speaker 2:
So they were just doing what they were told, but weren't like.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, cause. So the picture and this is the part where I'd love jump in here, holland, the nation of Israel, is a picture of a personal salvation, so to speak. So you're born again. The nation was born out of Egypt, from a old slave master to God as your ultimate benevolent dictator or master. So it's not like you're free now I'm free, I can be my own, whatever I'm my own. God, no, it's. I shift masters from a slave to a bondage of slavery to now. I'm now a slave to righteousness and God, which is ultimately he has designed me for benefit and through worship of him.
Speaker 2:
So is it all like? Ultimately, not all of the people that made it to the Promised Land are believers.
Speaker 1:
Right. This is where salvation has always been by grace, through faith. If they believed in the promises of God, then they were saved in the same way that we are saved. There's a distinct difference, though, in the salvation of the Old Testament is that they didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:
Right, there was now I still Was it just in God's saying their hearts?
Speaker 1:
Man, now we're gonna get into what do you think on that one. It's seeing their hearts, sort of God's still remember, with Ray I always look at Rahab versus Pharaoh. So the same revelation in a sense, was given to Pharaoh as was to Rahab. The fear of the Lord kind of came out. Pharaoh, who was definitely not chosen by God, rejected Rahab, who was chosen by God in Jericho, received salvation and she becomes a part of Israel and is totally saved and is in the line of Jesus, which is just wild to think about all that. So I do think there is God's calling goes out and you can't respond to God unless he reveals himself to you. So somehow God made himself be seen by Rahab, not seen by Pharaoh, and I think that's the mystery here, which is what Paul always refers to, is like the how people are exactly saved. I think that's part of the mystery of it, but ultimately it's faith in what Jesus does on the cross and that he dies on the cross and he's raised from the dead.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, God just had a different process of saving people in the Old Testament.
Speaker 3:
And then the main difference Old Testament to New Testament is Old Testament was looking forward to the promised Messiah. New Testament is looking at or back to Jesus. And so even in the Old Testament he was still saved by grace through faith, and that faith was in God's promise to one day redeem the world through a Messiah. And promised back in Genesis three Right In seminary.
Speaker 1:
I think that makes sense. Yeah, in seminary I think we said the Old Testament.
Speaker 2:
It's hard to like explain Like it's like I can understand the big picture mentally, but if I was asked to like explain how people were saved, yeah the Old Testament? I wouldn't know.
Speaker 1:
So remember I mentioned this forever ago. But Genesis three about the proto Evangelion, which is where which is one more time. Proto Evangelion, where Jesus is mentioned in Genesis three, when Eve, when Eve is cursed and Satan, the serpent is cursed, you know there will be war, enmity between the woman and her and her offspring and the serpent, but the serpent will strike his heel but he will crush his head. And so that was sort of a wild thing to have a, the woman see, which is sort of wild to think about. Which the word there is sperm, which is sort of wild when you think about that, that the woman seed would crush the head of the snake. So just a lot to think about there, anyway, and that was.
Speaker 3:
Jesus, that was where you're going.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, thank you and that was Jesus Right. And so, from Genesis three forward, you still see that. And so then, the promise of Abraham that he would become a nation that's in Genesis 12, genesis 15, specifically with Abraham, abrahamic covenant, and then you see it, lived out with the 400 years of affliction prophesied by God to Abraham in Genesis 15, is lived out by the Israelites. And then, eventually, moses comes and delivers them. The promise is still for them to have a Messiah that is going to deliver them ultimately, but which is why it's weird with, when we get into the New Testament, how they're still waiting for the Messiah. They just couldn't recognize when it came Right, the. And, like I said, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed, which is, you know, nerdy talk like ultimately distressed God's sovereignty and it doesn't really matter. Right, ok.
Speaker 3:
So yeah, if you say you wouldn't know how to answer, if someone asked you, how are people saving the Old Testament, you say by faith and God. That's it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, ok.
Speaker 3:
The question that came up and that promise, messiah, jesus, who? They didn't know who. It was yet Right. The promise was still clear. The whole tension of the Old Testament is who's the Messiah going to be? You know? Is it going to? When's it going to come? You know, is it? Is it David? Is he the promised Messiah? He crushes Goliath, right Goliath. His armor is described as serpent armor, bronze armor, very similar to the word for like a serpent, and David crushes his head. And so it's like oh man, is he the Messiah, the one who's promised to crush the head of the serpent? And then David falls into sin and it's like, nope, wasn't him. And so who's it going to be? Is it going to be his son, solomon, is it going to be? So on and so forth. And you keep getting people who step up as leaders, who experience God's calling and blessing, but then ultimately fall short and show that they're not the Messiah. But God keeps reconfirming his covenant and his promise. One day a Messiah will come. He'll be from the line of David. He'll be from, you know, the tribe of Judah. He'll be a descendant of Abraham. And so when you finally get to the New Testament and you see the genealogy there, the significance is like hey, this is the one, he's finally here, it's Jesus.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's so good. One of the questions we got because we mentioned Mount Zion, which is the heavenly kingdom, versus Mount Sinai, which is really, I guess, a mountain of penalty. Anyone who touch it will die. But you've come to a better or different mountain because you now have the Holy Spirit, you're now going to be made in righteousness. And so the question was because I went to Hebrews 12 in the message specifically, you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, two enumerable angels in the festival gathering and to the assembly of the firstborn who enrolled in heaven and to God. So the question is I'm not really sure exactly what is a Zionist, but it seems like it is often a term of mental apply to the Jewish or Christian community. After today's sermon, I think that is referring to our future home in Mount Zion, aka heaven. Is that right? What do you think?
Speaker 3:
about Zion or Zionism.
Speaker 1:
Let's go with Zion first and then we'll go to Zionism.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I mean, I think they're right in identifying Zion as referring to our future home. It's also like the prophetic or poetic name for Jerusalem. You see, in the Old Testament prophecies about what Jerusalem was meant to be and what it will be in the new creation, the new Jerusalem, the home of God's people. But yeah, zionism is a different thing.
Speaker 1:
But on Zion, real quick. I love Psalm 87. The Lord loves the gates of Zion more than any other dwelling place. He likes to be a doorkeeper and he likes to invite. The Lord records the registers, the people this one was born in her. In other words, he lists off all these people that are born in Ethiopia, babylon, egypt. He said no, but this one is born in Zion. It means you're born again, and so I love that Zion view of heaven. Now let's go to Zionism, which is where we hear this a lot. It's more of a movement to reestablish and protect the Jewish nation, which is now Israel. It was established as a political organization 1897 by Theodore Hersey, and so I think that's what when you hear Zionist or a Zionism. It's to establish a Jewish Hebrew community on earth, because that's where ultimately it should be. Now the weird thing is, zion will be on earth. If you believe in the millennial kingdom, where are you out in the millennial kingdom? Are you down with millennial kingdom? Do we have time for that? Yeah, we probably need to wrap up, but essentially there's two views on it. That's more of a heaven on earth kind of thing, and this is a Jewish community or a those specifically that kind of reestablishing a Jewish hold on earth, a specific location of land and blessing that would be on earth. Would that?
Speaker 3:
be Well. I use pejoratively, too, to refer to people who are like anti-Palestine or something, and so it's used as a way of calling someone Negative connotation Right.
Speaker 1:
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2:
Totally.
Speaker 1:
All right, well, listen. I appreciate you being here for the sermon recap. Thanks for having me, and Katie always love having you and listen. Thanks for watching. If you have any more questions, make sure you text us 737-231-0605. We would love to hear from you. Remember, make sure you share, like, subscribe, do all the things on all your favorite platforms and let your friends know to watch and listen to the pastor plus podcast from our house to yours. Have an awesome week.
