Transcript
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and welcome back to pastor flex podcast.
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I'm so glad all of you are joining us as we're recording live right here in austin texas so excited for all of you who have just experienced the eclipse, and with me in studio is none other than machine gun nick.
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Welcome back, machine gun nick.
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How do you?
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And also, is we have Suzanne?
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Suzanne, is this your first time on the show?
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It is my first time on this podcast.
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Oh, what other podcasts do you have?
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I have my own podcast.
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Tell us about what your podcast is.
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I have a podcast called Cherry Ice Cream Smile.
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And what exactly does Cherry Ice Cream Smile talk about Duran?
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Duran.
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Wow, I don't want to say that dates you, because you could be just, you're just a classic 80s, 90s person.
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Yeah, okay, it's possibly it all, right, awesome, uh.
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So, and then also with me in studio is none other than mrs adrian plegan full that's right, my sweet wife and we just we just recovered our dog, which was good.
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We never lost her actually.
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Okay, that's good, all right.
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Well, we're talking about how do you respond to suffering?
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And uh, we, we looked at the whole book of Job, and so the book of Job has 42 chapters.
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First chapter sort of sets it up Uh, satan comes to God.
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God says to Satan hey, have you noticed my servant Job?
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And he's like listen, all of Job's blessings.
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Of course he loves you, wouldn't.
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Anybody who gets that much favor is going to be all about you.
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But you strike him and he will hate you and he will curse you to your face, and that's how.
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And then he does he has 10 kids, all of them die.
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He's super wealthy, all of how.
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And then he does he has 10 kids, all of them die.
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He has, he's super wealthy, all of it's gone and he still doesn't curse God.
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And then, in fact, he, satan, has to come back and says listen, the problem is you need to like, make him sick and feel miserable because he's just a selfish guy and so he doesn't actually care about anybody else, he only cares about himself.
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And he strikes him and he refuses to curse God.
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And that's where how the story sets up.
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And what I like about this is nobody has it worse ever than Joe Can we talk about like?
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Have you ever had anything even comparable to this machine gun, nick?
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No, no, so far, thank God, I've not been homeless and I don't have boils growing on my head.
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You know all over.
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Yeah, suzanne, anything comparable.
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Not all at the same time, okay.
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So you've had some sorrows.
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I've had some sorrows.
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I think we've all had some sorrows.
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Yeah, adrienne, any anything that you could say like is right up there with Job.
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No, okay, yeah, I don't think any of us can, uh, but we've all, we've all experienced suffering.
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And let's just go over some of the responses um, to suffering, uh, that you, that that these people are facing, and so, as we were going to do that, we're going to talk about, uh, think about your primary place of suffering in your life machine gun, nick.
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So I want you to think about that, and Suzanne as well, and then Adrian as well, the, the, the, the.
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The difference will actually three, four, five, six, seven, eight responses the.
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We have the first response, which is Job's wife.
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She says curse God and die, which is pretty cynical.
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It kind of like uh, I'm giving up and you should give up too, and God might be powerful.
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In fact, we will all say that he is, but he is not good, you can't trust him, he's chaotic and he just has no rhyme or reason to anything that he does.
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So curse him and then live your life to the full, because it's over, and go and kill yourself, which is sort of a wild response.
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Have you ever felt like that?
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Has there been anything in your life that's kind of had a curse god and die moment.
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For you, this is a free, free, open, answered well yeah, all right, so what do you?
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got well.
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So when the catholic catechism people told me that if you know you kill a bunch of people in combat out of anger and then die, you're gonna go to heck hell, I was kind of like, okay, that's awesome.
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So okay, god, you suck too yeah you were.
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You were anger, rage.
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I mean just just disgust.
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I'm not dealing with that yeah, I would say disgusted.
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yeah, I, you know it in a life of sin.
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It felt like freedom, like, oh, okay, I don't need to be guilty over this stuff.
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Now Right, it's already planned, it's predestined.
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I'm not going into heaven, I'm going to hell, and so I can do whatever I want.
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Now Right.
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So it was.
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You know, that was kind of in.
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There were moments where I was like you know, screw you, god.
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Like what do you ever do for?
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me Wow, that's intense.
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And tell me how that mentality worked for you.
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It didn't.
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I mean that went down a whole road of drunken depravity.
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Eventually, you know, it went down the the two divorces, um, which crashes into.
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Let's, let's use marijuana to.
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So I don't blow my own head off right like my soldiers had like.
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So it just was.
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It just was like this ever-spiring downward moment where you're white knuckling, it being like I'm gonna hold on, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna bring this ship up right eventually right and but there's no, I don't think there's really any stopping like has, as as it went lower and lower, okay, spiraling out out so that did not work for you.
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Uh, a mindset.
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So what about?
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What about anyone else?
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Have like a curse God and die moment?
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Suzanne, do you ever have a curse God and die moment?
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I mean maybe a fleeting moment especially like situationally.
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Well, yeah, being single and being single over 40, there have been moments when I felt very, very alone.
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And you know, and I blame God and I'm not happy about it, I'm angry and I think I you know God doesn't let me stay there too long, but I'm.
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You know, there've been some moments that I have been that angry and you know, his wife was angry and didn't trust God.
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And there's been points in my life where I've been angry and not trusted God in the moment.
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Adrienne, have you experienced anything like that?
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Um, I think that's a good question.
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I don't really know.
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You haven't done a curse God and die moment, have you?
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No, like I've never.
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I don't think I've, I don't think God's ever been the target of my anger.
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Uh, yet I'm not going to say when it happened, but I think for me it's been.
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I think I will say when.
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I think before we were married there were relationships that were really disappointing to me and I and they that felt spiritual Relationships did feel kind of spiritual because it was like man, like what causes a man and a woman to like, really like, each other?
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I'm like everyone's screwed up.
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Everyone has issues.
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Everyone has, like you know, emotional, physical, mental flaws.
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Everyone does.
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So why like?
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Why is it that people are drawn to certain people and then why do relationships not work out?
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I mean, it's not like any marriage is without issues, and so I think there was times in those seasons where I was like man.
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This is frustrating and this is harder and this feels like God is like like why is God allowing me to feel a certain way towards some person and that was disappointing to me and then like and then to be hurt by them, or to be, or vice versa, for someone to feel something towards me and I'm like man.
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Why Like?
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This is irritating and like.
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I don't really like it was, like it was always the wrong person or something, and I just feel kind of like that, though that was the probably the time for me where and I did feel kind of like what, suzanne, what you were saying I felt alone otherwise.
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And so then, whereas I think in my time being a mom I've been really frustrated and really down but not as frustrated at God as I was pre-marriage, which is interesting more frustrated, like wishing I could just die to escape, but not because I'm like, oh, I'm just so mad at God.
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I haven't.
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I think that really for me really was from when I felt lonely and God was kind of the only person I felt like I understood me, and then to feel like gosh, why are you allowing this?
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That felt different, Whereas now the object of my anger is other people that I feel close to no, that's good, that's good.
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So I feel like, so that response of curse God and die, I think is more of a rare not I would say rare, that's probably not a good way, but I'd say it's typically not the full christian response.
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I think the moralist response which we're about to get to with the three friends is probably where I would uh find out, like when something bad happens, I should die because it's probably my fault, and I just kind of think of all the reasons why it all went wrong and so therefore I'm the problem.
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Uh, in fact that's what happens with um, the three friends, eliphiphaz, bildad and Zophar.
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They come to Job, they sit with him in the ash heap dumpster area and they're like they sit with him for two weeks which you got to give them credit for that and like how are they not working?
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I don't understand how that works.
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Where does people get two weeks of vacation?
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But maybe they're like, oh, this is that bad, the rest of my life can be put on hold, and maybe they're wealthy enough to kind of do that.
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So they go and they sit with Job for two weeks and then, after Job complains about how awful life is, they speak up and they say you know, the reason this is happening is because of something you did.
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And so they speak into a really moralist view Good things happen to good people, bad things happen to the bad people.
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And if you, if, if God allows all this to happen, clearly you must've done something.
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It's it's the classic John nine the man born blind and the disciples goes God, whose sin was this?
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This man's sin or his parents' sin that he was born blind?
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So the automatic assumption for a blind, homeless guy right guy, and maybe he did have a home, but a blind guy begging on the side of the road was that you must have done something wrong or somebody must have done something wrong for you to end up like this.
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And that is basically moralism.
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And and uh, one of the questions we had, uh, from our um pastor, pastor, pastor Plex podcast questions was during today's message.
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We're referring to the way we expect sin, expect blessings, when we feel like we sin less.
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The pastor said I call this view moralism.
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Is this a term only he uses or is this a term widely used across the Christian theological community?
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And I would say to you that that is a term used across the community that we need to be sort of aware of Legalism.
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I think we mentioned might be a good way to put that.
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But moralism is better because legalism at least you have some sort of law.
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Moralism is, and maybe this is it.
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You've created your own standard that this is what a moral should be, and if I live up to this, then I should get blessing.
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If I don't live up to this, I should expect loss, and I think that's how a lot of people live life, especially Christians, because we are moral people and so, therefore, when I do good, I expect good.
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And, to be fair, all throughout Proverbs and all throughout the New Testament, you reap what you sow, like that is a biblical concept.
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However, it the thing that the difference between karma and Christianity is?
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It's not a guarantee that what you reap or what you what you sow you'll reap.
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Does that make sense?
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Is that a clear thing for you guys?
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Wrap your head around Clear.
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Not really.
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Only because, like you're saying that you sew this and you might not get what.
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What comes comes back from it.
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Right, oh, I understand how you you're putting it, but why is it that, if I sew something, that's not what I'm gonna get?
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right, because that makes you the god right like.
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So god becomes a genie.
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Because let's say, let's just go planting crops, because that's reaping and sowing.
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So if you sow crops, well, you're expecting to reap and in general you should but that doesn't mean a storm's not going to come around, hailstorm or something, and wipe out your crops, and so you sowed and you got nothing.
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The general principle is you stick a seed in the ground, it's going to germinate, it's going to be grow and be fruitful.
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But I think what happens if, if I pull the lever and then things don't happen, that can be frustrating.
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Otherwise entrepreneurship and, um, any business at all, would be pure success.
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The reason why it's not is there's the fear, there's failure, and that's why entrepreneurs are the riskiest people in the world.
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But general principle you reap what you sow, but you've we all know people who started something, hit an obstacle and quit.
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I think we all know people who have done that.
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We've all maybe experienced some of that.
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So, yes, I feel that way I also.
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I came across okay I was trying to find the actual verse, but in Romans eight and nine I feel like I've hit something.
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Recently I actually texted this to my community group, but it was essentially talking about how there's nothing that we like, our actions aren't deciding for us really anything.
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It's like if we are able to do something good that glorifies God, it's because of his work inside of us that enabled us to do this good work.
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And when we disobey or when we do something that's not pleasing to him, like we're not reaping what we should reap for.
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That, like the fact that we're saved period is means we're not reaping what we should reap for that, like the fact that we're saved period is means we're not reaping that.
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So there was kind of this mentality of like our entire life is not a cause and effect of our actions and, ultimately, what the Lord chooses to do.
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However, there's a, there's a layer of um, there's a layer of not of like consequence, I think I think God, I know I feel consequence, all often from sin.
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But consequence from sin is different than this moralist view of like oh, because I've done something bad, now I'm God is like going to kind of orchestrate things against me.
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That's very different than and so when somebody like I often feel like you know you'll hear of someone getting in a car wreck, or I have this experience back.
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There was a really weird tragedy a few several years ago.
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A girl that we'd all grown up with like at Hill Country passed away out of nowhere, literally dropped dead in her house.
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It was like super weird.
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They still don't really know why and it was like okay, well, you're left trying to make sense of it.
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Yeah, I remember this.
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Yeah, I remember this yeah.
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And it's like all of her peers, she had like four kids right.
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Well, no, she had one and she was pregnant.
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Yeah, one, and she was pregnant.
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That's right, and it kind of.
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I think that it looked as though maybe she'd had a C-section, there could have been a blood clot and that was what ultimately, like killed her inside a.
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She didn't make any sense and all of her peers are like everyone's afraid and everyone's like wanting to ensure that this isn't going to happen to them.
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So everyone's just selfishly engaging the tragedy.
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It's not like we're not over there grieving and maybe like, oh, she probably did something wrong.
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Right.
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Whether it was she didn't check, get a after whatever operation checkup from the doctor.
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We're trying to find either something physical or spiritual that she's done wrong.
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It's like people are kind of trying to make sense.
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Not because, not actually because we believe that she is like in my.
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From my perspective, it's not because we really believe that she, like, was owed this, but because we're afraid and we're trying to soothe our own fears and making sure that.
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How can I ensure this isn't going to happen to me?
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Okay, I do a good job and you start to like and you can find evidence for whatever you want to believe.
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So if you want to find evidence that you've lived your life in a way that's superior to how you perceive she lived her life, and to feel that you might be not at risk for that, you can.
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Or if you want to go at it from the opposite and find evidence that you've not done some things and then send yourself into this spiral of anxiety, you can do that too well, machine gun nick.
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Is this something that you think men deal with, like when something bad happens to somebody else?
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Is there a part of you that goes oh, they must have done something to deserve that.
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Or do you just go huh, that was weird and sort of not try and take two steps beyond it depends.
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Okay, because it does depend.
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Because, like, if, if it just happens like a freak accident, you're like, oh, okay.
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And that's when you're like, huh, if you see somebody who's constantly like setback after setback, yeah, setback, and like the freakiest things keep happening to them, that's when I think I go, what are you doing?
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right like, but do you ever worry about in terms of you, like that's gonna happen to you a little bit?
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Oh, really okay, because when I hear, when I heard that story, adrian, I had a hard time like connecting that.
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But that's, this might be something.
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That is because I don't ever think that happened to them, that might happen to to me, and maybe there's a little bit of arrogance there.
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All I mean by that.
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So so like, if you, if you talk about death well, they died from this I don't really, I don't really internalize that.
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I'm like, okay, yeah, all right.
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But if, like, you talk about car accidents, because I swear to God, driving around Austin, it's not, it's not an if, it's a win right.
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That one I'm kind of like okay, my whole argument, all of COVID is I'm like you get on 35.
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Like I don't like go lick the floor at at McDonald's and you're safer from COVID than like you then getting your body on 35 in a vehicle.
00:17:39.201 --> 00:17:39.621
But you know what?
00:17:39.621 --> 00:17:40.381
It's fine All right.
00:17:40.401 --> 00:17:41.682
So so tell me about this, adrienne.
00:17:41.682 --> 00:17:52.029
I agree with you To with you To the point is like when your friends saw this, they internalized that might happen to me, and so they really felt real anxiety.
00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:55.811
It wasn't even just one of my friends, like it was so this girl that died.
00:17:55.811 --> 00:18:03.458
She was four years younger than me, she was my sister's age, and their entire peer group was unhinged.
00:18:03.458 --> 00:18:14.144
It was like all of them, I think, like some are on medication now for anxiety, All of them, I think what ended up in counseling, not as a collective, they all live, they all have spread over the U?
00:18:14.144 --> 00:18:17.201
S like it's, not like they were all together still, but it was like it's.
00:18:17.201 --> 00:18:19.707
It did something for them and it should like.
00:18:19.707 --> 00:18:25.029
When a young mom in her early twenties drops dead for no reason, that should kind of mess with you a little bit.
00:18:25.029 --> 00:18:26.122
But it what was.
00:18:26.122 --> 00:18:50.623
What was interesting to me is it was, I think, when you're trying to find cause and effect is I think that's a good way to like wreck yourself because like and here's this is where I also feel this way Like you know, there's people who would look like right now our children are running around in an alley where we've just heard like five semis driving past, and most parents wouldn't be doing that.
00:18:50.702 --> 00:18:54.969
Most parents would feel like we needed to be watching them and we need to be, and we're kind of like not worried about it.
00:18:55.550 --> 00:19:05.050
And so if one of our kids was to get hit ever someday I'm not talking about today, but literally ever in the next 30 years if one of our kids get hit by a car, I guarantee you we're going to have a whole collection of friends.
00:19:05.050 --> 00:19:06.973
It's like, oh yeah, those they didn't really watch their kids.
00:19:06.973 --> 00:19:14.806
And I'm like, okay, fair, they're creating a cause and effect that makes sense to them to and they feel that they're superior, that they watch their kids.
00:19:14.806 --> 00:19:20.986
They don't, they wouldn't, but like who's to say, you couldn't be staring watching your children and a tragedy could still happen anyway.
00:19:20.986 --> 00:19:28.515
And I feel so strongly that God is sovereign over those things that I'm willing to do what we're doing right now and really not feel bad about it.
00:19:28.515 --> 00:19:41.153
But and part of why I feel so confident is I have walked through, I have done some of the dumbest things, not not even realizing the risk I was incurring, and I truly believe that God went before me.
00:19:41.153 --> 00:19:47.089
And there have been times when some of those decisions were made in sin and God still protected me.
00:19:47.530 --> 00:19:53.631
Right, but you're not advocating like we should have the kids go play in traffic, Cause I think sometimes people can have like like almost like.
00:19:53.631 --> 00:19:56.404
Well, you know all the days of our written in the book.
00:19:56.404 --> 00:20:03.988
So we're predestined to go and live and die and whatever, and so there's still a human responsibility that we're not supposed to just like.
00:20:03.988 --> 00:20:05.029
Put God to the test.
00:20:05.049 --> 00:20:13.521
But you can, human responsibility can fit here, and there's a lot of really high control and really low control that can all fit under that and I think it's so important.
00:20:13.521 --> 00:20:21.299
I think the high control, human responsibility people, in my opinion, are stressing themselves out and they're putting themselves on a position of judgment.
00:20:21.560 --> 00:20:22.343
Okay, this is good.
00:20:22.343 --> 00:20:26.305
Keep coming with this, cause I feel like this is what people need to hear yeah, and this is it's very fear based.
00:20:26.526 --> 00:20:28.460
Yes, and that's what I'm hearing.
00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:32.780
And back to like the moralistic or the legalism yeah, but what?
