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263: Tony Nelson joins Pastor Plek and Nicole Troup on the podcast this week to recap Sunday's Sermon on Matthew 1. They talk about Joseph's difficult decision to mary Mary after finding out she's pregnant and his choice to step out in faith over fear.
Faith, Culture, and Everything in Between.
Scripture References:
Matthew 1
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Speaker 1:
And welcome back to pastor flex podcast. I'm so glad that you are joining us today, as we're going live, which I'm really pumped for, which is always exciting you never know what might come out of somebody's mouth and joining me in studio today is none other than Nicole, super trooper, troop. Welcome back, nicole.
Speaker 2:
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:
And then also Tony Nelson, always one with great questions. Tony, welcome, thank you, appreciate it All right. So we're going to do a quick recap of where we went this past week with the sermon on Advent, and we were talking about doing the next right thing and Joseph was presented with. For him, the next right thing was to get married to the woman that he was engaged to. Then he finds out that she is pregnant. He then thinks I'm going to do the next right thing, which is to not get married to this woman I'm engaged to, and I'll divorce her quietly. And then he changes his mind he's going to do the next right thing, which is to marry the woman that he is engaged to. So he kind of goes through a little. Some might call cold feet, but for good reason and I do appreciate this sort of aspect for an engagement. This was like a real trial for him and kind of like what I wanted. The premise is what during Christmas, and especially for Joseph, but also for us that we have to be flexible and the next right thing might depend upon more revelation. And so what I've learned is and one of the things that just kind of the pieces that came out for me when it comes to figure out what God's plan is that in a moment you can choose to be a hero or a villain. And I kind of made this premise I don't know where I heard this, but, man, I just thought it was really genius and I'd love for you guys comment Like a villain is someone who has, you know, in the origin story, has pain, and then their whole rest of their life they want to make sure they spread that pain to as many people as possible. And then a hero in their origin story has some sort of pain, but then they're they want to prevent as many people as possible from experiencing that pain. And so whenever Joseph resolves to do the next right thing and divorce his wife, he's he clearly had some pain of betrayal in that moment, from perceived betrayal, but he doesn't take a villain attitude. Let's talk about that just for a second. Tony, have you ever experienced that villain attitude creep up in your own heart? Has that been something you've ever had?
Speaker 3:
Sure, having a villain attitude, yeah, many times, yeah, more times than I care to admit. It's probably the thing that would creep up the most is the desire to get even. That desire to get back you know, I can relate to Joseph's predicament because my wife and I went through an affair and that feeling of I'm going to get even definitely can creep in and that that affair happened like when you first got married, 30 days after. Yeah, that's wild, what yeah?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so, so, yeah, so talk to me about how, why you didn't go full villain and look to explode everybody's lives.
Speaker 3:
I wish I could say it was for great reasons, but it was a very prideful thing. I was going to be that guy that would be able to look back and go. I wasn't the one that broke the covenant Nice.
Speaker 1:
Pure pride, pure pride. So not great intentions, but but you guys made it Like you guys are still married, you guys have two children and we're now like, how many years later?
Speaker 3:
This is your 13, about to be 14.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's amazing to kind of see God's grace in your life and you totally took the hero route in that one For me. I shared the story about it and I thought it was funny how Nicole goes. When did you do that? When I got honked at and then I was like infuriated, especially when they passed me. I think that was like adding insult to injury and I went to make sure that I flagged them down and stood outside their car to have a conversation and thankfully my buddy Bill talked me off the ledge and we just went and got dinner. I think it was a non-event. But man, I was right and he was like what exactly are you going to say to that guy? I was like I don't know, share the gospel. You know it was like that was rude. You know, like we're in Texas, we don't honk.
Speaker 2:
Anyway, that was another question that came to mind during that sermon on. Sunday I was like was Chris a Christian at this point? Yeah, I was totally.
Speaker 1:
I was in seminary at the time, you know I was totally like loving Jesus with my whole heart and one to make sure that guy knew how wrong he was, because there is no repentance without conviction of sin. I wanted to help him out in his breaking the driving etiquette.
Speaker 3:
I was not a Christian. When mine happened, I was in direct alignment with the fact that I was already lost.
Speaker 2:
So I was doing lost people things. Christian snake mistakes too. That's the lesson, that is true.
Speaker 1:
Thankfully, God spared me for actually having a conversation with that person, I don't know what I would have said honestly It'd be like anyway, it was a mess. How about you, nicole? Have you ever been a hero or had something where you were the villain?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think for me that villain attitude that you were describing comes up when I'm victimizing myself.
Speaker 1:
How do you victimize yourself?
Speaker 2:
Like when I blame my pain on other people, and instead of like, the thing about heroes is they have a good heart and they don't let their pain, they don't wallow in it. I guess they do something about it and a villain wallows in their pity and they're like I don't deserve this I deserve better. And so then they have to get back at everyone in the world because they were the victim of their own pain and suffering or whatever. So whether it was self-inflicted or not doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:
Is there a particular event or anything that you kind of go back to for, whatever you go, personal victimization or anything?
Speaker 2:
Not really, I mean, I think that's just been a general, just a general thing.
Speaker 1:
All right. So we talked about, like Joseph does, the next right thing Then he had, and the thing that sort of blew me out my mind and I love just kind of your perspective as a person that came to Christ as an adult, tony yeah, really, nicole as well, like you're he the initial word of God that comes to him through a teenage girl that he's engaged to? He has feelings for her, clearly, and she comes and relates an undescribable I guess it's describable. It's like hey, I'm the savior of the world has come to me personally. There's a supernatural revelation that I'm experiencing. I want to share it with you and he rejects it.
Speaker 2:
What do you?
Speaker 1:
think, if you could even ponder anew, how would you, especially for one who did reject the faith for so long from the woman that you were married to, and talk to me about how you might have processed that? And really, what do you think? The fact and how common is it to reject the word of God from another person? And then you want evidence. And so he got the evidence, which was in a dream, which to me that's shaky evidence, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3:
Well, the desire for evidence, I think, is a very normal thing. It tends to be a lot of people's perspective of just I need proof. There's so many opinions out there on what is right and what is wrong, so I need something more substantive than just an opinion of a 13-year-old girl about what she thought happened. So I appreciate you talking about how he did the next right thing and not publicly shaming her Right. As I was thinking about that, I was like in that time, in that culture, he would have been completely justified in doing it. Oh, 100%. And so why do you distinguish that as him not doing it as the right thing, the next right thing, compared to what was culturally normal and acceptable and practiced at that time?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think it's the only reason I call it. The next right thing is because the Bible does, because it says he was a just man and he wanted it. So I think you could go the other way, because it would have been, because the thing if you did publicly shame here is you would separate yourself from sin. I don't, I'm not taking that on.
Speaker 3:
Yes.
Speaker 1:
And I, but I do appreciate that he goes the that route, but he, because but it there was a potential that he could, that could come back to haunt him later. Once you engaged to Mary and her family and you divorced her quietly, did you, you know, impregnate her, feel bad about it and then you, you know, now you're a deadbeat dad. It could have gone that way.
Speaker 3:
It could have.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, but he was, you know, he probably felt like man whoever the father is probably needs to marry her or whatever. You know, whatever his thought thinking was on that.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, and that's why I appreciate him going and doing this in silence and not not making it a big public event ruining this teenage girls, you know, public reputation and the willingness to still take on the hardship when he receives the vision from the angel, and just that, that desire of even if it's going to be hard, I'm still going to do it Right, at the risk of reputation and business and all those things. So, and I think the thing, is interesting.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, for me, a dream would, would you know, rank up there with like a weird vibe or feeling. I don't know if I totally buy into it, but clearly for a lot of people in the Middle East, even today, people come to faith in Christ through dreams and so or at least that's a, that's a piece that strikes them. So I think God was speaking to Joseph in the exact way that he needed to be spoken to, and I always say this about God he is the greatest communicator and so he knows what is going to move a person. So a dream, I don't know if that would move me, quite like it moved Joseph, but it did move Joseph and that was powerful. That. Are you a big person on dreams, nicole? No, not really.
Speaker 2:
The dreams that I've had have never really been very vivid or easy for me to remember, so like I don't, I I mean people say that I'm also very skeptical Usually when people say that like God spoke directly to me or whatever the dream or vision and I'm just like, did he?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, when I was in seminary they had us do this exercise where you would set an alarm for like, whatever, like 3am and you'd wake up at 3am and then write down whatever your dream was and then go back to sleep and it was some wacky stuff it was. It was sort of a wild deal of like That'd frustrate me.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, I don't think I would feel that assignment. That was the actual assignment in seminary.
Speaker 1:
It wasn't necessarily like God speaking, but just like to show you like you've got some wild stuff in your head. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it would mostly frustrate me because I want to finish my dream, not wake up and interrupt it.
Speaker 2:
I think that's why I would be frustrated.
Speaker 1:
They can't remember their dream, and so if you anyway, that's mid-dream.
Speaker 3:
All right, how about this?
Speaker 1:
The lap. The piece that really moved me was when the angel says don't fear. And I usually equate it don't fear with like don't be afraid of the angel, but it's don't fear to take Mary as your wife. In other words take on all the public shame Like this is the word of the Lord is to take on the public disgrace of. Mary because there's a greater grace that you're going to receive, which is being the stepfather, if you will, to the Son of God, and I think that is just really a neat thing. But I think this goes into it, like when you become a Christian, because this might be his conversion right here. Let's just, you know, I don't, it's kind of odd to think of conversion for Joseph, but yeah, at some point he has to move from fear to faith and I think that when he gets the word from Mary, contemplates divorce, gets the dream he moves from fear to faith. He then believes the Word of God and then takes action on that and there is nothing good that can come from that unless it truly is the Son of God. And this is why I love for you as a speaking. Has there ever been a time where you had to go from fear to faith and knowing that the rest of your life is going to change forever? I don't know if anyone has like the rest of my life is going to change forever, but clearly, just by this one simple next step, everything is going to change.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely Going to college All right, what do? You mean. So when I was contemplating colleges and stuff, I was a baby Christian. So I got baptized when I was 17,. Junior year of high school, and so senior year of high school I'm contemplating college. My parents don't know anything about college, so it's not like they're helping me.
Speaker 1:
Really what do you mean they don't know anything about?
Speaker 2:
college. Neither one of them went to college.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah.
Speaker 2:
So they didn't like you know, they don't know about FAFSA and like college applications and stuff like that. So I was kind of on my own and at the mercy of the people in my life. Thankfully I had people in the church that I was at to kind of help me, and I was torn between going to Baylor Baylor was the school that I really wanted to go to and going to the University of Texas. Spoiler alert I went to the University of Texas but I knew they'd been the college football playoffs. No, I didn't know that they weren't good when I was there. This was like post Colt McCoy era unfortunately. But, but I wanted to go to Baylor because it was a Christian school.
Speaker 1:
And.
Speaker 2:
I felt like that was a safe choice and I was afraid of UT, because Austin's this like super liberal city and UT is a very secular college. You know, and I would say that that is like a pretty like life defining choice, like where you go to school because, where you go to school could determine where you end up after school, In the sense that like what years?
Speaker 1:
were you at UT?
Speaker 2:
I started in 2013 and I graduated in fall 2016.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I definitely was down on the campus during those times.
Speaker 2:
Doesn't surprise me. Yeah, it's a big campus.
Speaker 1:
Big campus. I saw you in the student union.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:
All right, so you made the decision to go. Ut and that changed your whole life. But was it? How was that a faith thing?
Speaker 2:
I was. I was afraid to go to a secular school. Oh, okay, got it. And the one of my small group leaders was, like maybe God's calling you to go to the secular school.
Speaker 1:
Okay.
Speaker 2:
Like she basically challenged me in my thinking that, like you can still grow in faith and go to a secular school, like maybe God's going to use you there, and so it was pretty much me as a 17 year old deciding like, okay, this really freaks me out, yeah, but this seems like the choice, that this seems like where, where, what everything's pointing to, and yeah, Okay, what about?
Speaker 1:
what about you, Tony?
Speaker 3:
Yes, I'll share one, but before I do, this is an interesting text to me because oftentimes I'll hear people talk about if God calls me to something, it won't be hard, I'll be able to go through it and that's how I'll know he's called me to it.
Speaker 1:
Oh, wait, wait, wait. You're saying that someone says God called it. It has to be hard. No, that it won't be hard.
Speaker 3:
I'll know that it's the right thing to do, because He'll open up all the doors and it'll just be smooth. And I look at things like this and I'm like God's calling Joseph to stay and he's selling him don't be afraid of what's going to come, which means it's going to be a challenge, right, and he went through some stuff that we don't exactly see documented.
Speaker 1:
He also had to deal with. Like you know, herod wanted to kill his kid.
Speaker 3:
For me, the one that comes to mind after I was a Christian probably the first one that kind of changed the trajectory of my life and growth was going from being somebody that was just a consumer at church to eventually being someone who said I need to step up and be a small group leader, a community group leader, and that changed things for me, because I wouldn't say that I have the natural giftings for it. I don't exactly have high degrees of compassion, more of empathy.
Speaker 1:
You know the typical things you'd want to have when you're leading people and getting into it. Do you outsource that or what it's as?
Speaker 3:
much as possible. I love it. Yeah, it's good. Oh, that's so funny. I can appreciate that, but I do think that he's grown me a lot. God has grown me a lot in leading in many ways, so it has changed a lot of things for me, and I may still not be the person who's got the highest degrees of compassion or empathy, but that doesn't mean that things have not shifted and moved over the years. So, yeah, I was stepping into a bunch of hard stuff.
Speaker 1:
That is good. That's good. I do appreciate that, and the one thing I did, you know, joseph did not have the Bible. And I think this is an important thing, to kind of wrap it there is no Bible for him. I mean for him to go read the Bible. He'd have to go to the synagogue and get like a trained person to help him out.
Speaker 2:
Like they didn't have those in their desks. They didn't have it on their phone.
Speaker 1:
They didn't even have like a family Bible on the mantle. This was pre like people having books and so or at least the poor people didn't have books.
Speaker 3:
Like if you had a book.
Speaker 1:
It's like having a car, or like having like a Michael Jordan rookie car or something. It's something it's like it's incredible gift back then. So he doesn't have that. All he has is the word of the Lord coming through his teenage. Betrothed is, you know, mary and an angel. And we don't have to worry about that today. And I kind of made this point because I want to make sure that no one's just, like you know, going off like I just felt, like the Lord said and there are moments when the Lord does say but that's going to be confirmed by God's word Everything's going to be outside of God's revelation. Through his word and then through God's people, like God brings the church together to give you freedom or to kind of discern, help you discern what God's will is. And I think trusting that for the most part is the the wisest thing you can do when you get kind of like the dream that you're really not sure if this is the direction you should go.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
So, uh, I feel like that's pretty much it on on this particular. It was great. So recap Um, so this this Christmas really, we were talking about God's plan and then how God tells you to do the next right thing when plans change. And then, coming up this week, we're going to get back to God's plan and how you can experience it fully, so make sure you guys come and check that out.
Speaker 3:
One question for you when you use that phrase doing the next right thing. If somebody were to look at their life today and go I'm in a hard situation, how would they figure out, I guess, what the next right thing might? Be sure, I do feel.
Speaker 1:
I do feel like the next right thing always comes within God's word, god's people, god's spirit. So the Bible, the church, holy Spirit, how do you know like? So? This is where I Don't. I'm not like. God does give an unction, he does remember. If he's the best communicator ever, he's gonna make it clear, and so. And if he makes it clear, he's not gonna make it clear just to you, he's gonna. He's gonna speak through the body of Christ, so that you are never alone. That's the beauty of have having the the canon of. Scripture. That's the beauty of having the church with leadership that God has Appointed through his people. It's sort of a wild deal. I'm super grateful to ask that question Because I think that comes up all the time. I don't know what the next right thing is. And you're like I need to divorce my husband. Well, man, let's talk about that. You know, like this is like a direction I'm feeling and there's God, there is, you know. Is it never permissible? No, they're there. God gives permission for divorce. But let's make sure that you're not going outside of scriptures Ability for that to happen and then out of like it might be a calling of yours for you to stay in that marriage.
Speaker 2:
I'm just thinking of like an example. So it might be like, for example, for you.
Speaker 1:
You had I mean, this is even before your believer but you had a right to divorce, yes, but you chose not to, and and I would encourage someone in that, even in your state, to kind of reveal the love of Jesus. I just kind of look at Jose and Gomer how it's a while that is, and how you get to present Jesus and the church over and over again. That presents God's love for his bride Over and over again. Through that it's a beautiful thing. So, anyway, to that point, I feel like it's not always cut and dry. So, especially on I mean, what sweater should you wear today? Probably that's. That's one that you can handle, but when, when it comes to like decisions where you're not sure what the next right thing is, that's why community is so important, which Is why I really I think your group does a really great job of really, whenever big decisions come up, there are voices that speak into it, because I think what happens Is that, in isolation, people make poor decisions. Absolutely, um, what do you think that?
Speaker 3:
is they listen to themselves, yeah, and so, as an example, when you use that, that the hypothetical one of the woman going, well, I think I should leave my head Right right, okay, well, that's the stuff that you're listening to in your head, right? And if you don't go get anything confirmed with other people, you don't read through Scripture. It's really easy to believe you're hearing from God, and it's actually a very different voice that you're listening to.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Whether that's my own fleshly desire to exit or whether that's the enemy talking to me doesn't matter the source of the improper communication, but it's my inability to identify it. That's the real problem, and so I need Scripture and I need other people in the church to help reorient me to true north and pointing back to God.
Speaker 1:
This is good. I think what happens for a lot of people when they come to big decisions, they actually don't go to their community, they go to their echo chamber.
Speaker 2:
And so what they?
Speaker 1:
want is just somebody to agree with them, and then they find enough of those and then they kind of rest their soul and they don't reveal to their community what they're going to do until after the decision's been made. That happens a lot with people getting married.
Speaker 3:
Well, this also reveals the significance of if you are in a discipling relationship or if you're in a leadership role of any kind or you have any kind of spiritual authority over somebody, then it is absolutely crucial to be willing to have the hard conversations. There's a lot of people I see who just don't want to step on someone's toes, and I'm like you don't understand how damaging it can be if you might be the one voice that they're coming to for a reason and you choose not to do it.
Speaker 1:
So there's two pieces to this. I really love that you brought that up. I think, on the one end, if a person with a big decision, if you don't go to those people that are closest to you and know you the best, then what you're preventing is the God's not gonna. If you're wanting God to speak through the random prophet, that seems like an odd deal as opposed to the church. He's already provided for you but as the church, like if when someone comes to you and they have a thing and you don't go, I'm gonna risk the relationship here to probably tell you something you don't wanna hear. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but the enemy multiplies kisses and I think that's the part of Proverbs. We're terrified that I'm gonna lose a friend Because and again I think what happens for people the echo chamber is always it's your family's, it's your fun camp, it's your emotional support group that always echo chambers you and says whatever you wanna do, I'm for it, and they have no real buy into your life. But the people who have buy into your life are gonna challenge you and say this is the harder right over the easier wrong and it's ultimately gonna bless you, I think, and we as parents deal with this all the time is like we challenge our children not in the like you don't care about me, whatever, like I challenge you because I do care. And I always have to go like. You know I love you, right? Yes, you know I want what's best for you, right? Yes, so I want you to put the switch down. I want you to stop watching whatever ridiculous show you're watching, and that's a hard truth that can come to that moment, but it's such a gift ultimately. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that? That's great. Hey, if you're watching, we would love for you to like, share, subscribe, take this podcast, share it with somebody who probably needs to know that they need to do the next right thing. Might be awkward if you go like hey, you know that decision you're needing to make, watch this. That might actually be helpful. Maybe you're the only person in their life that's not an echo chamber and it might spur on a conversation. So make sure you like, share, subscribe, let everyone know you're watching. If you have any questions, text us at 737-231-0605. We would love to hear from you or go to pastreflectcom Excited for the two teams conversation. So, from our house to yours see you next time.
