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259: Pastor Plek, Pastor Mo, Catie Sas, and Machine Gun Nick are on the podcast today to recap Sunday’s sermon on Exodus 18. They talk about the Israel-Hamas conflict, what makes a good leader, and resolving conflict within the church.
Faith, Culture, and everything in between.
Scripture References:
Exodus 18
Questions:
Mo did a great sermon. So the folks that attacked Israel were descendants of Ismael, which was also fathered by Abraham by God's instructions to Sarah. So why would God allow them to attack & kill one another to the point where one lineage is totally wiped out? The history of wars and no neighborly love seeming to exist anywhere or anytime in the world seems pretty depressing
Why do we keep falling back to "we aren't perfect and will sin" instead of turning it around and actually trying to live our lives more like Jesus? It just sounds like that's a crutch to justify our sinful behavior.
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Speaker 1:
And welcome back to pastor plex podcast. So so glad that all of you are watching live on our platforms where we are presenting this pretty exciting and just super excited. I'm Chris Pugnpole, your host, and we're we've got in studio with us today None other than Mrs Katie Sass. Mrs Katie Sass, how are you?
Speaker 2:
I'm doing great. All right, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:
All right, how about senior Muhammad Ali? How you doing?
Speaker 3:
Doing well, my man.
Speaker 1:
And then machine gun, nick, always ready.
Speaker 4:
Howdy folks.
Speaker 1:
All right. So we're going to be doing a certain recap on Exodus, chapter 18, and really wanted Mo to kind of break down what you talked about on Sunday and where you took us.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. So the second half of chapter 17, after Moses makes water come out of the rock by speaking to it. After that they go out into a battle with the Amalekites. They have an unprovoked surprise attack by them. Moses tells Joshua hey, go down to the battlefield, I'm going up to the mountain. He raises his staff and then when he does that, they win. When it goes down, they lose. Then he's got Aaron and her come beside him so that he can hold up a staff. They win the battle, they celebrate and they say the Lord is my banner. And then chapter 18, jethro comes just out of the cuts and he brings Moses's wife Zipporah and their two sons. Then Jethro comes to faith and God praises God and then gives Moses some leadership advice.
Speaker 1:
All right. So I want to break in with a straight up question. I know it seems like we don't usually do this, but I felt like this was helpful and it's not really a question, it's a comment, but I think there's a question beneath this. Mo did a great sermon, so the folks that attacked Israel were descendants of Ishmael, which was also fathered by Abraham, by God's instructions of Sarah. So why would God allow them to attack and kill one another to the point where one lineage was totally wiped out? The histories of wars and no neighborly love seem seem no neighborly love seeming to exist anywhere or anytime. The world seems pretty depressing. So let's talk through that in that first portion, with the battle with Amalek the Malachites, let's talk through. I think the person asked the question got a little bit off and so let's just talk through where Amalek came from.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, so wasn't from Ishmael. Jethro from Midian is from Ishmael and then Amalek is from Esau, right, but it's all the same in the sense that they're all descendants from the children of not the promise, when either, well, abraham doesn't do what he's supposed to do, and then now you have this war between the two kids, but then it ultimately because it's like, well, why are they fighting each other? I think that question ultimately goes back to Adam and the fact that, because he's sent, ever since then, not just cousins were at war with each other, but all the whole human race has been at war with each other. So I think that's like the deeper question behind the question.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I think we have look at in Genesis, man, whenever Isaac and Esau are born, rachel is told the older will serve the younger, and though the being constantly at like battling each other for forever, and so that's kind of like a prophecy that that isn't like a I'm going to make this happen prophecy, although you could argue in a way that because God doesn't reveal himself with a promise to Esau and his descendants, that that would be God actively acting, but probably a better way to look as the. The promise doesn't go to Esau, goes to, I sorry, goes to Jacob. And so by that reality of the revelation of God coming through the child of promise, which is Jacob and it's not Esau, and then Romans, and in gosh, what's it? Zachariah? It's Jacob I love, but he saw, I hated that sort of a wild thing. So the promise goes to Jacob and descendants, not Esau and his descendants. And as we learn at the very last little bit of that story with about battle, the Amalekites, god says that the Amalek will be in battle from generation to generation with the people of Israel, even though he says he's going to eliminate them at some point, which is and here's the wild thing about this King Saul. If you guys remember this. I think it's from first Samuel, 15 ish. He battles the Amalekites and then what he's supposed to do is kill off the Amalekites because of all their sin. That Israel is going to be acting as God's judgment from a for the Amalekites, for their sins, and he judges them. But Saul doesn't kill off King Agag and everybody. He leaves King Agag alive and that is a actual bad thing. Samuel actually takes care of him. But the Amalekite lineage, actually from generation to generation, even to Esther's time, which Esther's timeframe would have been about 400 roughly years after the battle of King Saul, which is King Saul's battle with the Amalekites, is about 400 years after Moses's battle with the Amalekite. So every 400 years or so you'd have the battle with the Amalekites until we don't know of any Amalekites that are, you know there are no Amalekites today To that end, the spiritual Amalek. You could call it Hamas, you call it Hezbollah. And I was reading today in Ezekiel 36 talking about how the nations will scoff at the calamity of Israel. And what they're talking about is, when they got exiled to Babylon, all the nation was like well, well, well, look at all your power. It's completely gone. And God judged them. In fact, it said that they would judge the descendants of Esau to perpetual bloodshed or descendants of Eden to eat them to perpetual bloodshed. I thought that was wild, that that's sort of like God would sort of predict a prophecy here, say that because of the way you've treated Israel, your descendants will be involved in perpetual bloodshed. So kind of wild. I would love to hear it. Because your name is Muhammad Ali, like that's not just something that you thought was a cool name, you picked, that was your God given name. And so talk to us about, like, as someone that came from a Jordanian lineage, like how does I mean, how do you wrestle with that? Just like with a Palestinian background, and you're reading this text and seeing, kind of the people Israel you know, you might even had I think we joke around, but it's sort of serious Like there's, you might have cousins involved on a Hamas side. If you will Right Talk to us about like what that does for you personally, like and then biblically, and how do you handle that.
Speaker 3:
Yes, I think you talked about an effort and I didn't talk about in the sermon, but it's basically like, whether you're somebody who's a Palestinian descendant like me, or you are just not a Jew, the good news, through Jesus, is that all non Jews they could have had faith in the Old Testament too, but it's so much more explicit now, right, that everybody who's not of Jewish descent can become part of the family of God.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
So, so, even if you're a descendant of Esau and not of the promise, which I am, you can be like in Romans, chapters nine through 11, you can be grafted in, yeah, into the family of God, which is wild, yeah.
Speaker 1:
And I love Romans five eight God demonstrated his love for us Right, and that while we were still sinners, christ died for us, and so I think that's where all of us, who are obviously Jews, included in this as enemies of God because of our sin which we inherited from Adam and Eve, that God demonstrates his great love, that he makes a way for us, and I think that's beautiful. And even when people are killing each other, wiping each other out, that is just a consequence of the fall of man that I think we're seeing expressed. On top of that, when you look at Israel, current modern day political, geopolitical world, I do think that there is a plan, ultimately, for Israel in the Bible that one day God is going to bring 144,000 during the time of tribulation to and he keeps a remnant for himself I think that's always true and that they are going to be ushered into the millennial kingdom, which is what Ezekiel 35, 36 talks about. That one day they will be given a new heart and a new spirit only by the power of Jesus and the Messiah, like we've been given. We get a preview of that by getting the Holy Spirit within us and a new heart within us. We are a new creation in Christ, although the only minor detail that's a problem is we still have this old sin nature, which will be totally eradicated when we get a glorified body which might be more than anybody was bargaining for Katie. What do you think about all that?
Speaker 2:
I've just been absorbing all of this.
Speaker 1:
Okay, I appreciate that, all right. So the second part I thought was obviously that they had to work together to battle. You know, there was. I love the way you said that Moses is his job was praying, which I feel like people don't think that's a real job. Right, josh's job was to fight, like wheeled a sword and hack the enemy, which is like you're like, okay, I can see that's a real job, you're protecting people, and I think like we need to do something more than pray. I hear that a lot. I'm like, no, that's the first thing you do and then if through prayer, you're called to do more, do that. So you got the prayers of Moses, you got the battling of Joshua and the Israelite army, and then you've got Aaron and her talked about those guys, which seems like they have a really not that significant role, but it was super vital.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, if they're not holding up his hands, they don't will them, they don't win the battle, right? So I just, I just love that. They knew their role and they did it with all that they could. Yeah, they won the battle because of it. Right, they played their part.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I love that. I love the fact they're like, hey, he probably is not going to be able to keep his arms up, so they bring a rock for him to sit on and then like, okay, and I'm not, and I'll wonder if they if you know, this is where, if it were me, were Aaron and her there the whole time. Or they bring in replacements hey Bob, can you take his arm for a bit? I'm getting tired. I don't know. I don't know if that's true, but I just could speculate here that that's exhausting, holding up somebody's arms. Like in reality. I think it's hard to support somebody in ministry in a prayerful position, which a lot of our people do. When you give financially, when you give of your time, of your service, when you do actually show up and you have a ministry of presence while someone is praying over somebody else. That's a big deal and I know that we can like. This is like the battle between Israel and Amalek and like the Amalekites. That's a big deal. Yeah, it is a big deal. But it is also a big deal when you are praying over somebody and you're that's in the hospital or in your community group. They're dealing with some sort of sin and you are there as a ministry of presence or you're like saying amen to all that that's still an equally big deal, absolutely Okay. Let's talk, then, about Jethro, and there's that sort of the reality that Jethro is asking, or he's not done, ask. He's stepping into Moses' world as a leader of two and a half million Israelites, and the thing that struck me, mo and I don't know if this struck you is there's only one person that knows Moses as well as Jethro does, and that's Jethro. So, for example, aaron and Miriam, although they know him physically, he's their brother they've only known him for, at this point, about two years at the most, and they're getting 80 year old version of Moses, where Jethro got 40 years of Moses, from 40 to 80. And so I think the relational capital that was built up during that time made it really easy for Jethro to go up and start telling Moses how to run things. But let's talk about that.
Speaker 3:
On what Jethro said, yeah, he basically saw Moses doing all the things and he just goes out to me and says, hey, what you're doing is not good.
Speaker 1:
Which is here's Moses he's, and I think what he was doing was the same thing that I guess Pharaoh did like, because Pharaoh, at least in all the movie references and so I don't know if this is true at all, but people would bring the problems of Pharaoh. Pharaoh would make a decision, and so I think he took a palace mentality, like I'm the one that represents God, because Pharaoh was the one that represented God to the people, and so therefore, I think he took an Egyptian standpoint and he's saying don't do that, that's dumb. You might be the representative of God to the people, but you have some people that have some character and can do this. So talk about the people that Jethro told Moses to choose.
Speaker 3:
So choose for yourself men who fear God. They're trustworthy and hate a bribe.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, which I thought was. I love that, and that is who should be leading not only the people of Israel, but the people of our church.
Speaker 4:
Well, I would say, not only the people of our church, also the people of our government, not to get political on this one but I mean, that's just a good leader all the way around.
Speaker 1:
Well, I love what Mohamed said in the service, which was anytime you talk about Jesus, you are political, and talk about why that is.
Speaker 3:
I mean politics in its essence is morality Right. And the second you bring a morality. You have to go. Where do I get it from? And you're either gonna go scriptures, another religious text, your feelings, like you have to choose. So that's gonna be your bedrock in which you built politics on. So you're always gonna get political when you're talking about the scripture.
Speaker 1:
Right and I love what you said. You said Jesus came on the scene. He said repent for the change, your morality, for the kingdom, a government of God is at hand. Which is sort of why, and the thing that Jesus also said is like my kingdom is not of this world and we're ambassadors for Christ, and so it gets kind of confusing sometimes because we're supposed to be like we're looking out for the good of the nation, like Jeremiah called the exiles of Judah, to look out for the good of Babylon, serve them, do great things, have influence, which clearly Esther did, daniel did, ezekiel did. All these different guys had great influence in a secular kingdom but they brought a spirit of God kingdom, of God influence, which I thought was sort of an incredible reality there. So what I loved about that is just like, again, like the men of character that he chose were over the tens and I think we go, yeah, over the thousand, that makes sense, but over the tens, like that's a small group, like you'd have people over the tens and I'm assuming that's maybe 10 families I don't know what that is, so let's just talk about you know 20 men and women-ish. That's sort of a wild thought to me that you like that. He was concerned with the 20s or the tens of men, which I thought was interesting. Does that kind of when you think about church, katie, and how, like I don't know, church is governed. I don't know if you ever think about this, but it's sort of wild to think about that. God wants us to think of people in terms of small groups of tens. How does that like? Have you experienced that on either side of being led or leading a group of tens in the tens area?
Speaker 2:
I don't know that. I understand what you're asking, so like yeah.
Speaker 3:
I'm glad that was just like-.
Speaker 2:
All right, so like.
Speaker 1:
so Moses says listen, or God says to, or, sorry, jethro says to Moses, and I think this was God speaking through Jethro. What you're doing is not good. You need to take care of problems from the thousands to the hundreds, to the, to the, all, the, down to the, the tens of men. So, as one at our, our church, clearly as community groups and you've been you were a community group Deacon at one point, so talk to me about what that means for you. Of like, just how we interact because I'm sure this is what you brought up on on Sunday is that you had, you know, sally and Heidi had a cat issue and you know whose cat is this, and so you know Moses is deciding that that seemed like not a good use of his time, but that's the decision still had to be made. Have you ever had to experience like conflict resolution within groups of the tens?
Speaker 2:
like a small group. Can you stop saying groups of the tens?
Speaker 1:
Sorry, small group group of ten men.
Speaker 2:
The group of the tens the group of sorry Small groups.
Speaker 1:
Have you ever had conflict within a small group?
Speaker 2:
Yes, okay All right.
Speaker 1:
So tell me what kind of conflict that was.
Speaker 2:
Oh, it was conflict, where a couple didn't believe that Ryan and I were doing a good job leading and, but didn't come to us.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
They came to you yeah. And then not expecting that you would just directly call me and say, hey, this is what, so and so said, you'll need to handle this. Yeah, so we go to them. Yeah, go directly to them and we have to handle and work through this conflict, which they had then already brought in other friends of theirs. Right and then it was for people versus Ryan and I, yeah, and so we had to face it. We went to their home. We didn't tell them like what this was about, which he said hey, we need to talk about something. Can we come over tonight?
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And they said, oh yeah, absolutely Come on over, not knowing that you had already filled us in. Yeah. And so I just ride away, said hey. So Chris said X, y and Z. So let's talk about that, right. And because why would it's like this was? This was a small, started out as a small thing, started out as a small group of people, which then conflict can either. Conflict can typically expand the amount of people that are involved, right, if it's not handled maturely, yeah. And so Ryan and I wanted to handle this biblically, right. So go straight to the problem. And you know, I wish I could say it was just worked out.
Speaker 1:
You mean biblical or church. Conflict doesn't always get worked out.
Speaker 2:
No, I wish I could say that it was worked out, but I mean I don't know if that answers the question.
Speaker 1:
No, it totally does.
Speaker 2:
I think that the every, every issue needs to be met with some sort of authority. Acknowledge right yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I was like this is your guys thing to handle. And then then you guys went to handle it and then it did escalate and then eventually became like All right, we're out of here which happens, like that happens, and I think that's part of being, I think, what happens for a lot of us is that we don't understand authority in general. We don't. We want things to be our way, and if people aren't doing things our way, then well.
Speaker 2:
I think you're kind of peers, yeah, like you're kind of in the same life stage, you're kind of in the same age group, and so it doesn't feel like you're talking to Moses. Yeah, I feel like for them it seemed like we're going to go to someone who's we see as older and wiser to fix this problem. As opposed to going right to you instead of going to us and having a conversation? Right, Cause most conflict can be resolved with a conversation. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
And it's wild when it can't. And so I think that's where, especially with us, since we do have the spirit of God that that's part of our, our God given role, and that's why I feel like as as when we have community group leaders at our church like part of your role is to address conflict, and if you don't have conflict, you don't have a real group.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, um, meaning, meaning, like means you probably have a lot of people talking about your behind your back. Oh, fair enough. Yeah, it's, either.
Speaker 1:
they're talking, they're talking either they're just shutting it down and they're just like there's cause. There are some groups where you show up and you, just miserable, you go home and you're like, well, that was my Christian duty.
Speaker 4:
I showed up to the community group and but I mean, if you're the leader, they're always going to be people talking behind your back. That's right, and if it's, it's just going to be what it is.
Speaker 2:
Well, or you have to play the. I'm going to be everyone's cup of tea at all times. Yeah, and that then you're not. You're not a leader at that point You're not, you're not truly leading and walking in obedience to God, because you are trying to please every single person's preferences, and so maybe that's how you can make everyone happy. But are you truly fulfilling this role that God has put before you?
Speaker 4:
Well, I think the first understanding is leadership isn't a popularity contest. Right, you have a duty, right, and how are you going to fulfill that duty? So you go under those guidelines and that's you kind of make those your right and left limit. Now, you're not going to make everybody happy all the time. Right, and that's that's the the facts of it. Um, it's getting your mission accomplished is, you know, is all is what? What it's about?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I can imagine just when I think about the you can like, so tell you the small groups of Israel? How about that Small groups of Israel, the, the group of 10s? Uh, like, I'm sure there was just like the grumbling. You know, at some point those guys did not do a good job of like, hey, we're not going to grumble about this, we're going to go pray to God about this, and that could have been all that could have alleviate a lot of issues.
Speaker 2:
Can you explain? Hold on, can you explain, like you keep saying the groups of 10s.
Speaker 1:
Small groups.
Speaker 2:
But like who were they? Who were they? Who were these people we?
Speaker 1:
don't, they were Israelites.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so there is. Why were they the groups of 10s?
Speaker 1:
Because Moses told, or sorry, Jethro told, Moses divide the people up into the thousands, into the hundreds, into the 10s, and then how did he divide them?
Speaker 2:
Like, on what basis?
Speaker 3:
Probably families, like you said.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, families and trust men of trustworthy character, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You lead these people, but they probably you kind of had to go. Okay, uh, let's say you had a huge family, yeah, uh, all right, we're going to divide these groups of thousands?
Speaker 2:
What were they?
Speaker 3:
One dude was over them.
Speaker 1:
One guy was over them.
Speaker 3:
Okay, the groups of hundreds or 800, or one guy was over them, 10 guys over them, and so on and so forth. So different group sizes.
Speaker 2:
The dude that's leading a thousand felt more significant than the dude that's leading 10. Is that kind of what you're trying?
Speaker 1:
to well. This is what I think Moe talked about.
Speaker 3:
You would hope not, because the reason probably why he would be chosen to lead that thousand, I would assume it's not because he's more skilled but it's because he has more longevity of character, I would assume, more wisdom. If Moses is picking this dude over the thousand, his first thought is probably like how do I make sure that he doesn't get proud?
Speaker 2:
Right. I would assume, Because I'm trying to figure out why we're making a big deal about the group of 10s.
Speaker 1:
Because I think that's what we can relate to. Okay, like you know, we're we're a group of roughly 300. And so when you take the 300 that we have and then you divide it up, you're going to divide it up into groups of tens eventually, and I think people can relate to that. That Israel had small groups, not wild.
Speaker 2:
If you reduce it.
Speaker 4:
I'm not seeing what you're seeing but if you reduce it to the smallest amount, right, the smallest. So like the family we're not going to go all the way down to one, but we're going to stop at tens.
Speaker 1:
You can resolve problems. Community groups equals small groups equals like groups equals all the groups.
Speaker 2:
So they just met together in a community group?
Speaker 3:
No, it was just like, basically, moses goes to to to Bob. Hey Bob, you're in charge of those 10. And when those 10 started having something, they'd go to Bob.
Speaker 4:
And.
Speaker 3:
Bob will be like that is your cat Sally. Yeah, and a question that just came in from our, you know, since we're live?
Speaker 1:
was this a leadership hierarchy of some sort, like a group of 1000 was made up of groups of 100, which was made up of groups of 10. Yes, yes. That was a hierarchical system, big pyramid scheme, although they made.
Speaker 4:
It was almost like the battalion concept.
Speaker 1:
Oh, for sure you got your battalion, commander.
Speaker 4:
Oh my God, I'm going to confuse people. Yeah, you are I just like why are we talking about this?
Speaker 1:
Because organizational leadership is important. There's two things that that's really important about this is that the what's really awesome about this is that they only had to worry about character, because they didn't have to worry so much about, like charisma or chemistry, how well they got along. It's just that's the leader. He's in charge In our church setting. For the most part, you have to have character, but then and you have to have chemistry, you've got to have competence, you've got to have a lot of stuff, because you're dealing with an all volunteer church and that can be super challenging and it's very different than people. People like I mean this is the only church in town where we're the people of God and what happened when they didn't, when they disobeyed or rebel and they tried to splinter off? God killed them.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
Like it went bad for Cora and the 125 guys with him, and then the thousands later that said that wasn't very right what you did to Cora and the gang that rebelled. You shouldn't have killed or God shouldn't have killed. It's like most like I just work here. I did no killing and then they get swallowed up and he's like all right.
Speaker 2:
I mean, do they really think Moses opened the freaking ground?
Speaker 1:
You know, I think when you see him do a lot of Red Sea parting right right, right, you sort of you kind of like you know God's out there somewhere, but that's the, that's the representative of God that you can see, which is why every pastor gets talked about, like just because whenever you want to talk about God and how things aren't fair, usually you talk about a pastor because you don't want to say anything about God, because that's just not going to go well for you. You know that. But you can talk about a guy because clearly that guy is not operating God's will and so you just want to take him down. Does that make sense? I think that's. Or or the community group leader, in your case, where, like you and Ryan were leading that group and they're like well, clearly my life's not going right, it's clearly Ryan and Katie's fault, right? Does that? Does that make sense? And I think that's what's hard about leadership is because you are called to make hard decisions and because God is asking you to do something. Really difficult it is. It is difficult to navigate those conversations when you don't have like in an all volunteer church where, god's hammer, you don't have any anus and suffiruses moments happening that I know of, just at least not at our church. There you go, anyway, all right. Next question we got to keep moving.
Speaker 2:
I still don't know why we spent so much time on that.
Speaker 1:
All right. Why do we keep falling back to we aren't perfect and will sin, instead of turning around and actually trying to live our lives more like Jesus? It just sounds like that's a crush to justify our sinful behavior. Moe, why, why, why do we keep falling back? Clearly, this person was like thinking that you were calling them to. Just you thought sin was okay, I guess. Oh my, did I say anything? I don't know, I don't know that. That. Why do we keep falling back to we aren't perfect and will sin, instead of turning it around and actually trying to live our lives more like Jesus? It sounds like that's a crutch to justify our sinful behavior.
Speaker 4:
Well, as that person tried to be perfect, I mean it's pretty hard. It is pretty hard from a military standpoint which you know you have to be pretty dang perfect all the time Jesus did, said, did, say be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect, right, but we should strive for excellence, not perfection.
Speaker 3:
Well, or strive for perfection or strive for perfection. What's the what? What's the quote marks?
Speaker 1:
other quote marks. So we aren't. So why do we keep falling back to quotes? We aren't perfect and will sin and quotes Gotcha. He must be quoting somebody else.
Speaker 3:
I know I didn't say that but that's okay, that's a great question. Let's just talk about that question, and first John 3 versus 4 through 10. Can I read that? Yeah, okay, it says everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness. I think the word practice here is the key. Sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared, jesus, in order to take away sins. And him. There is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness as righteous as he's righteous, whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. And then it goes on. Yeah, like that. It says no one born of God makes a practice.
Speaker 1:
Let's talk about what that means.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, so I think you have to kind of this is a huge topic. So Jesus said be perfect, what did he mean? So you can fall into three camps probably.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah Three.
Speaker 3:
One you can say that we, after we receive Jesus, have the capacity and the ability to actually stop sinning completely before we reach heaven. It's a very, very small percentage of Orthodox church history. People have held that Mm-hmm. If you hold that, good luck. Very, very small percent of church or orthodox people have held that and have had that as a standard. For others that's I don't.
Speaker 1:
I don't know, and here's why I don't think that's even true, because in first John yeah one it says verse nine if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.
Speaker 3:
Yes, the truth, is not it so?
Speaker 1:
if you hold that I, I think if you hold that view yourself to see. But go on. That's.
Speaker 3:
That's one view, that's one view and the other one is where I think is the Right one. More correct one, at least, is that, like you said, we have still the sinful nature in us. So then in Roman 7, when Paul says I have the desire to do what is good, but not the ability to carry it out. I do what I don't want to do, and the thing that I want to do I don't do it Then the question is that Paul pre conversion or post conversion? From everything that I studied, to me it seems like it's Paul post conversion.
Speaker 1:
I totally agree.
Speaker 3:
So to me that is the Christian.
Speaker 1:
I think you're wrong on that one. I think he's absolutely wrong. Yeah, and I.
Speaker 3:
Greek it's like. I mean, it's as clear as a clear as day.
Speaker 1:
Johnny Mack, yeah, all right, so he holds that.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, wow, yeah, I so in other words, right, you gotta understand. I think person's got to understand that sin isn't just acts but his thoughts and in in Thoughts and what, what intentions yeah yeah intentions.
Speaker 1:
Exactly that's he was, for he judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart.
Speaker 4:
Exactly, and and for you to stop, just like I mean, you gotta think with that, but it comes down to all the bitterness that you could have, all the bad thoughts. You can see a homeless person cringe inside and that's a sin right at the end of the day, ish, but it's pretty. But also, like you know, as a man, seeing, you know, a pretty woman walking down the street and then what that? What is that trigger in your head like you've got to control all that.
Speaker 1:
Give it all up to God to be perfect right, and I think Whenever we receive Christ, he dies on the cross. We understand we dies on the cross for the penalty of our sin, so the hell is taking care of, but then he raised from the dead. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is in us, and so we have the power to overcome Sin. All right, that's the, that's the beauty of practice right there. Yeah, that's the power right there right, you have the power to overcome the practice of sin?
Speaker 4:
Yes, practice, but by the practice do you also mean the thoughts?
Speaker 1:
so that doesn't matter. So the here's the mind set. Yeah, here's the practice like I have a sinful thought, I repent of it. Yeah, so remember. And in sanctification, the process of sanctification, is you becoming more and more like Jesus over time. So, machine gun Nick, as you've cussed less, like you know, I mean, like you've Let no one filthy talk come out of your mouth like you have. You've heard that, read that, been around people that don't talk like that and you started to transform by the community of faith, by the Holy Spirit, by reading God's word. That's a been a powerful transition in your life. And then other things, like you know where you go in your head when, what you do when you're alone on your computer. All that stuff is going to transition over time as the, as the word of God, the practice of repentance. It has to is is gonna get in your life. You're gonna be transformed, and so that's why we rejoice when we sing the song, so we're not like who we used to be right anymore.
Speaker 2:
Yeah cuz you're either striving to be more like Jesus or you're not right. There's no in between and there's no gray like. You're either striving and you're aiming and fighting the good fight or you're Not yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 4:
I'll in or all out right, I agree so.
Speaker 3:
I agree with that. That question if it's like, basically, you hear, hey guys, we're just gonna sin, so it's okay, god forgives us, god forgives us. And it's like and I think that's like the third camp, which is like the free grace people, yeah, which is just like, hey, you know, if you never get over your porn addiction, you know God is good. And it's like, well, hold on. There's no such thing as a Christian who struggles with porn for 40 years and then dies on their deathbed, never having been set free of that. I don't believe that's such a thing, and to me this is as clear as you can get yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:
I guess what I would say is at some point you will win, Okay or at some point you will, you will win or defining what winning is right, like I feel, like a person who doesn't repent, like a person just because God's gonna give you over to your sin, right, and so I think if a person quits repenting, yeah yeah, that's where I go, that's it. Yeah, I don't know if you're a test yourself to see if you really in the faith moment. Right yeah but if a person like struggles, they have freedom for a certain period of time now, then there, whatever happens, I think that that's the renewal of the spirit. So I think you could have a person like over 40 years, like have periods of freedom and then just be an idiot.
Speaker 3:
No, no, no, no. Yeah, absolutely, there's, like he said, progression. Yeah, yeah, I just I remembered, knew this guy and he was like in his 50s and he's like, yeah, man, for the past 20 years been trying to quit porn. It's just, it's the thorn in my flesh, yeah, and I'm like that's not what Paul was saying. He literally said a messenger of Satan, right, when it's not porn, dude. Yeah it's like some, so that's like the last camp, and I feel like this person, yeah, yeah, he's looking at that and going now, that's not it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, so I agree with him. All right, um, we gotta wrap this up. Thanks for watching. If you are watching live, you got questions? Let us know. We'd love to answer them on next time. You text us at 737 231 0605 or go to pastor Plect comm. So glad all of you could join us from our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.
