Transcript
WEBVTT
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In studio with none other than Pastor Holland Gregg from Eastside Community Church, one of our favorite people on the planet.
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Hello.
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And also from the Cody Sparks Band.
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Mr Cody Sparks, welcome back, cody, still here.
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And then Adrian Plunkapole, my sweet, very caring, caring and very submissive wife, is also here today.
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Thank you, adrian, for joining us.
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All right, and we're talking about an issue that has been near and dear to Adrian's heart.
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Let's talk about it.
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What's that issue, adrian?
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Oh, it's not near and dear to my heart.
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Oh, it's just been up on your.
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It's just been up on our radar recently because we've had some people asking questions and you know, sometimes people assume that I have knowledge because I'm married to you, but that's usually a false assumption.
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Oh, okay.
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What was the question?
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Women have a role within the church and within their marriages.
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That is, to be submissive and to be, you know, followers of the male headship like.
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Why do we?
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It's like there's a lot of other things that the bible says that we don't take literally.
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Why do we take that literally?
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And we should just read the bible for ourselves and discover for ourselves what it really says and to which I have responded with.
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I feel like the bible is pretty clear and the areas where the Bible does have cultural comments that are not relevant to the times of today, there's a very clear explanation as to why we are not currently following those things.
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It's not that we just pick and choose what we follow.
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It's that we actually like.
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There's very legitimate theological explanation as to why we have ditched some things, Like, for example, we are not requiring that women wear head coverings at church and we've ditched that one and we feel okay with that.
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And it's not because we've just picked and chosen, it's because we have theological understanding.
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So that has been the head covering one.
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I thought it was great when we preached through first Corinthians 11 forever ago.
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We talked about like anytime a Jewish person would pray, they would put a hat on, and so it couldn't have been, unless there was an explicit thing about that.
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Beyond that, that's not what it meant.
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It said don't wear women's head coverings when praying.
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In other words, men don't dress like women.
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Women don't dress like men.
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Words men don't dress like women.
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Women don't dress like men.
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Be distinct in the God given role that you are and live that out to the best of your ability.
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Uh, and so I do think that is important.
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Or else we should be wearing, or ladies should be wearing, head coverings.
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If that wasn't true, um, but that's clearly not what that scripture meant.
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So I do appreciate you pointing that out, because I think there's lots of things old Testament like if I.
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I think people go like how come we're not wearing polyester?
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Or how come we're not?
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You know, why are we not, uh, banning non-kosher food?
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Because ultimately, doesn't the bible say and so you've just picked and chosen?
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Ah, you don't like gay people.
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So therefore, you, you go to all the passages of leviticus and you highlight those, say see sexual morality, and then all the ones that say don't wear polyester, like that's dumb, that has no relevance.
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That is picking and choosing, unless unless there is a theological reason for it that Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law which made Israel distinct.
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And so when Jesus comes to the cross, he does away with the distinction of Israel and the rest of the planet saying listen, there is no longer a what you have to do in order to be a part of God's people.
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The moral law has always been there and it continues even beyond that.
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So it's not like Jesus says hey, don't worry about sexual morality.
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He reinforces sexual morality in the same way the Levitical laws would have upheld it.
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So I do think there is some reality there that I think we need to just kind of understand that there isn't any picking and choosing that we're doing just based upon our own feelings, but rather we are reading God's word and understanding.
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When Paul gets upset and frustrated with people about circumcision, he's talking not just about the act of circumcision but all the ceremonial law that goes along with circumcision, as being the thing that's hindering them from a genuine faith in Christ, because you're having to add something to your faith.
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Okay, so, holland.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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Like I know that you've had a little bit of discussion about this issue in your pastoring work, of course, so talk to me about really where you feel like the big issue hits, where people get offended on this issue.
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Okay, so I would say so actually, let me bring this up.
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I don't want to totally derail everything, but so you brought up head covering, so yeah.
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I think it's an interesting one actually kind of like denim skirts for the the one that's pentecostals.
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Yeah, kind of anyways, do y'all know head coverings were kind of the norm in american christianity up until like the 50s and 60s, right, and do y'all know what kind of um triggered the like, rejection of head coverage?
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No, what was it?
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Let me share this.
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This is interesting.
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I think it's relevant.
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Okay, I love it.
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I love it.
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This is from so y'all know the name Betty Friedan.
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Friedan Friedan I have heard of that one, one of the leaders in second wave feminism, nice.
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She was the president of the National Organization of Women and in December 1968 said because the wearing this is to her organization, because the wearing of a head covering by women at religious services is a symbol of subjection with many churches.
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Now National Organization for Women recommends that all chapters undertake an effort to have all women participate in a national unveiling by sending their head coverings to the task force chairman.
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At the spring meeting of the task force of women and religion, these veils will be publicly burned to protest the second class status of women in all churches.
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That's wild.
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So this was an explicit part of second wave feminism, which a big part of feminism was um, it was supportive, she, she was supportive, the leaders were supportive of the sexual revolution, of abortion, um and uh.
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A lot of these things are connected.
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The reason I bring it up is to say understanding the context we're in now.
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A lot of where we are today culturally is really shaped by feminism Right and feminism.
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A lot of you know I was taught in school growing up you know the all the good things about feminine feminism and women having equal rights and things was not really taught that so much of feminist activism was really steeped in hatred of God and his word and rejection of the Bible and its norms, and that one of the core.
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So this is offensive.
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Everything I'm saying right now I'm like this is offensive to people.
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Come on, bring the offense.
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So here's a core principle to feminism and it is that male and female are essentially interchangeable or functionally interchangeable.
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And that concept, right there, is at the heart of where a lot of things that we are today we see in merit.
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So you take that principle, apply it to an individual person male and female functionally interchangeable you get transgenderism.
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Take that principle, apply it to sex, you get homosexuality.
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Male and female interchangeable, right.
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Take that concept, that principle, and apply it to the family or the church, you get egalitarianism when you know it doesn't matter if a husband or wife leads or if one is the head or the other one is.
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It's the idea of taking a biblical truth that you're equal in value and then adding something unbiblical that you're equal in every way.
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And totally interchangeable and indistinguishable.
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That was a core feature of feminism that has now shaped everything about our culture and the way that we think about gender, sex, marriage, church, all of that, and so we've got to understand that.
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But to bring that up is where it's very offensive to people.
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Yeah, well, and it's also interesting how those, the fundamentals of feminism, have, like you just said, developed the current culture that we're living in, which happens to be a culture very unfavorable to women.
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Like, very recently, you were seeing how that when you remove the, the uniqueness of women, you then there is no value of them and so there is no value to support them and helping and assisting in the raising of children, or in birthing, of having the children, or in, um, what like.
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Even in athletics, like a female that that is, you know, gifted athletically, that wants to compete, well, now, there is no, there's really not opportunity there, because we have just washed the entire, the entire race or not race, we've washed the entire gender out of it and we have, and that makes it something now that women have.
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No, it's not fun, it's not something, it's, it's like it's almost removed it as an option for for women.
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It's you can't, you don't, you can't compete and come up against men.
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And so I think it's interesting how something that was created years ago to bring value to women has actually been the number one thing to devalue and kind of remove women from a place in society.
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Right, yeah, okay.
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So what is the biblical role then?
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I think this is where you know we had a paper come out about this because we wanted to make sure that we were clear.
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You know we had a paper come out about this because we wanted to make sure that we were clear.
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I think what was hard?
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I think back before COVID, this was just something that we just all assumed church people Okay, maybe that's the wrong way, but I just sort of assumed church people got.
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It was like it was written.
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You didn't really preach about that much, it was just sort of reality.
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Everyone sort of understood it.
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And then all of a sudden, when, when I watched the culture flip, I was like, oh, we need to teach this.
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This is no longer something that you just sort of like um, it's like your crazy drunk uncle that you keep in the kitchen during dinner parties.
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It's like you need to bring out the truth because it's it's not only good, it's God's design.
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And if you don't talk about it, then other people will have a voice and opinion about the matters which are of the utmost importance, maybe not of salvation, but of church polity and then of the dignity of the human race and how God designed humanity, which is becomes ultimately super important, and so I think that's the division that happened created for me an absolute need for us to be really clear about this.
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Yeah, and I don't think it was.
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I don't think it was COVID, I think.
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I think that COVID happened to align really in sync with when progressive Christianity was was taking flight and progressive progressive Christianity was coming at women um, in a way that was.
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That was a bit empowering initially.
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Yeah, Cause I think for you.
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You told me once, like when the Rachel Hollis, the Jen hat maker originally, if you weren't married to me, you would have been swept away with that.
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That's what you've told me yeah, I would have been swept away with that.
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That's what you've told me.
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Yeah, I would have been swept away.
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But let me just go back to what was, I think, good about them.
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I can't speak to Rachel Hollis, but I can speak to Jen Hatmaker.
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Originally, back when I was having in the throes of my first two years of motherhood, it was very hard and we were having a lot of just basic challenges of like just sleeping and eating.
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We couldn't, we couldn't get either one of those things figured out, okay, and it was like it wrecked me to my core because I had taken on this like value of my role as a woman, to be a nurturer of my children, and so I, like I really valued that that was something I had.
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Maybe I would say I idolized most of my life.
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And so here I was and I think God's, god's love for me was to remove it from being an idol and instead call me to just obedience without the idolatry aspect, and I think by making it as painful as it was, it helped me displace it from its idolatry.
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But in that process I was struggling and exhausted and hurting and struggling with how this, how my struggle, um, fit within our marriage because I think I needed more help from you.
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But I felt really committed that my role was to just support you by never needing you, um, which was which was bad thinking but it, but I I believed that and so I didn't want to ask for help or even receive help, because it felt like that was an insult to my role, in my position.
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And anyway, I was in the throes of wrestling with that and struggling and kind of failing and I didn't have very many friends at the time in my stage.
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I think that I was in a weird stage of, like most of my closest friends from high school and college had did not have children yet and then the other friends I had were not having kids yet and they were.
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It was just a weird stage.
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And so Jen Hatmaker had this book.
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That was like phenomenal, it was funny, it was so well-written and she was all about the gospel at the time.
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Like she was all about, um, our strength, being in Jesus and him giving us the strength that we need, and what we're doing, our, our mundane tasks of motherhood, are ways that we are actually serving God, because we're being obedient to God and we're serving our children and we're serving our husbands and like this is.
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This is a valuable role, it's a kingdom impacting role and we need to see beyond the diapers and the sleepless nights into what is happening through us, through this.
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It was, it was incredible, it was this incredible message, and she could do it with humor and with.
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I mean, she just was gifted.
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Jenna Hemmick is very gifted Still gifted probably.
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Yes, and so it was like I was completely like swept away by and kind of given life in a season where I was kind of lonely and struggling and um, but then very slowly that message swayed away from the value of your role at home and then like the very first if gathering I will never forget the very first if gathering because I was in this stage I just described and I'm there and I'm one of the only young moms at it and everyone's watching the TV screen as these women are wearing all this like cool jewelry from Africa, and everyone's talking about how we just need to like as women, we can be about more and we can all go to Africa and sell jewelry.
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As though that's like an ultimate, as though that was like this, greater than calling as if like child being a mother and a parent at home or even just a wife at home.
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Like it.
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Just being in the United States was somehow a less than, and being doing something that is impacting Africa is is superior and not just good, but superior.
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And also it was a bunch of moms on the stage, which I knew.
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I don't know if anyone else was like paying attention to that, but I'm in my head.
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I'm like they have young kids at home.
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It's not.
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These people didn't all have high school age children.
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These people had young kids at home and they're talking about their trips to Africa and this jewelry that they're selling and the impact that they're making.
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And in my head I'm like what's happening right now?
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We're sending this message to women that the work that they're doing at home is secondary to something better that they could be doing.
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If only they could just believe in themselves and if only they could just aspire for more.
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And I was like and none of them were married to lead pastors, right.
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So part of me was like, what the heck like me aspiring to more.
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And so my husband can come sit, although jen hatmaker was.
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She was at the time and then yes, she was isn't right and, yeah, that's a good point, but she wasn't I would say she wasn't a part of this, necessarily this one moment.
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But what was interesting to me is it was like very clear to me that under no circumstance could you coming into my home and sitting with our baby while I go off to Africa, under no circumstance was that the bigger win for us and for our ministry and for kingdom expansion.
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And so to hear that message coming across was uncomfortable to me.
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And then over the years, the IF gathering, I think, has full circled back into a really healthy place, but before it did, there was this like a little bit of progressive Christianity that was kind of twisted in there for the next couple of years.
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And that message was to women and it was to basically become more, become something that fits outside of this design of being a mom and being a supporter of your husband.
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And I think the heart behind it was like it's okay for us to have a job, it's okay for us to work, it's okay for us to aspire to things which nobody's disagreeing with, which nobody's disagreeing with, but it was the fact that that's an ultimate and if you really value yourself, you're going to get outside of your home and I was like man.
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To me, that was just the most anti-biblical message that we could have.
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So I think the biblical message then is and this is the part where I think it's become a dividing line in Christianity today it is what roles are women allowed to have within the church as a whole?
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That becomes the question.
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And I think you and I have seen recently Jenny Allen speaking at some things and I felt uncomfortable by it.
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I was like I've been a big fan, a Jenny Allen fan, and then all of a sudden she's preaching at a church with a mixed audience, authoritative teaching, kind of going for it, and I was like crud, what is the response to that?
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And there's this, this reality, like what does the scripture say about that?
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And I think I think that's helpful for us to to get into, not so that we could create division, but so that we'd have some wisdom on this.
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Uh, cause, I think we just go to first Timothy.
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Uh, chapter two is where this really comes up, and I think Holland and I've talked about this a lot and I'm going to read this and I want you to comment on it.
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I desire this Paul writing.
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I desire that in every place, that men should pray, lifting holy hands, without anger or quarreling.
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Likewise also that women should adorn themselves with respect to a parable, with modesty and self-control.
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Not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly tire, but with what is proper for women, who profess godliness with good works.
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Let women learn quietly, with all submissiveness.
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I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man to teach or to exercise authority over a man.
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Rather, she is to remain quiet, for Adam was formed first, then Eve and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
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Yes, she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control.
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I think that when you read that, like in America today, that makes everybody un-cumph Like.
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When you say Un-cumph, yes.
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That is not even you know, not even offering an interpretation, just straight up.
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Reading the Bible is offensive when you read that passage, and I think what Paul is teaching here and what Adrian is talking about, about the home and the value of the home, I think are related to one another and go all the way back to creation and God's purpose.
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To us today, again, because we have grown up in a culture that has prized this idea that male and female are functionally interchangeable, right, and that there is no real substantial difference and anything a man can do a woman should be able to do as well, and vice versa.
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Um, and it's just simply not how God created things.
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Um, in this verse, you notice, he gives gendered instructions the men should do this, the women should do this.
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He doesn't explain it that much in the beginning, right?
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He just kind of assumes that you agree.
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Like, yeah, men should do this, women should do this.
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He, um, he gives uh, even even to the end, where he talks about um, authority and teaching, and he the, the defense he gives, for it is not some cultural phenomenon going on there.
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Um, in Ephesus, where Timothy was stationed, he brings it back to the garden and God's creation of male and female, and an event that happened, right Um, adam was formed first.
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That's his first part.
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Adam was not deceived, the woman was.
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And then verse 15, the one that confuses a lot of people she'll be saved through childbearing.
00:20:33.162 --> 00:20:40.365
Um, we know we're saved in terms of like, justified by grace, through faith, right, um?
00:20:40.365 --> 00:20:48.486
But the idea is, uh, you know, saved can also save can have past, present and future implications right, sanctification and glorification.
00:20:48.546 --> 00:20:48.875
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:49.256 --> 00:21:03.498
And so, if you know, if you think of this in terms of sanctification, that a woman's role, um, you know, is, sanctifies her intensely, sanctifies her intensely, um, through something that is unique to women that he names here childbearing.
00:21:03.498 --> 00:21:04.819
A man can't.
00:21:04.819 --> 00:21:07.063
We are not the same you cannot have a baby.
00:21:07.384 --> 00:21:10.086
Yeah, I've tried, it's just not going to happen.
00:21:10.086 --> 00:21:12.309
There's no baby coming out of me.
00:21:12.309 --> 00:21:12.891
Not going to happen.
00:21:14.194 --> 00:21:14.820
Your body is not made for that.
00:21:14.820 --> 00:21:16.273
I don't think you tried, but that's funny still though.
00:21:16.273 --> 00:21:18.835
Yeah, kind of had an image in my head I could try.
00:21:18.855 --> 00:21:41.980
I guess he points to what's unique about the woman here and says that you know and what's unique about the man, and that a man has been given, you know, a different kind of body where you don't have a uterus, you can't birth and nurture a child, but you do have bigger muscles and bones and things that are meant for you to be a protector and a provider, and so you know, for that that's related to teaching and authority.
00:21:42.321 --> 00:21:54.563
Yeah, and I like how he says in verse eight men should pray lifting holy hands, without anger or quarreling, meaning the stuff that usually gets paraded around is the toxic masculinity label of like bad men.
00:21:54.563 --> 00:22:23.750
We're not talking about bad men like godly men lifting holy hands in prayer, lifting holy hands in prayer and then also not quarreling, not having not leading from anger but leading from love, and so, and then also then it gets to the women's propensity not all women but have a desire to look at me and how I look, my values and how I look, not in my essential, my profession of godliness, of good works.
00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:37.519
I think there's that that natural, like like the one thing that's always cool for a man to be is angry, Like nobody, like that is sort of like a badge of honor.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:37.861
Is the angry man?
00:22:37.861 --> 00:22:39.548
Uh, you know, you might say that guy's a good leader in the military at least.
00:22:39.567 --> 00:22:43.984
Like someone's anger was what propelled them to great victory and great leadership and had high expectations.
00:22:43.984 --> 00:22:45.979
That's what anger, in a sense, came.
00:22:45.979 --> 00:22:54.105
Came with anger, but, and I think, um, with women, beauty and uh, wealth and attire.
00:22:54.105 --> 00:23:10.642
That's like the world's way of saying this is a, uh, a quality woman, and what God's saying is no, it's a man of prayer, which is meekness, surrender in that wild, and then a woman who's good works and then seen, ultimately, the only thing a woman can do, the only thing a man cannot do.
00:23:10.642 --> 00:23:16.404
Men, you are not allowed to do childbearing, and nobody's arguing that Even today.
00:23:17.977 --> 00:23:18.901
No, some people argue it today.
00:23:18.921 --> 00:23:19.343
Okay fair enough.
00:23:19.996 --> 00:23:20.856
For the most part.
00:23:20.856 --> 00:23:26.261
But they would say without some operations you're not going to produce a kid out of your body.
00:23:26.261 --> 00:23:33.789
Fair, yeah, naturally that would just not happen, even though we can kind of conjure it up so we can kind of live out this I beg to differ.
00:23:33.809 --> 00:23:37.838
Have you ever seen Twins, not Twins.
00:23:37.838 --> 00:23:39.281
I know which movie Arnold Schwarzenegger.
00:23:39.281 --> 00:23:41.848
Arnold Schwarzenegger, yeah Gosh, when he gets pregnant, dang it.
00:23:41.848 --> 00:23:43.092
What movie was that, gosh?
00:23:43.353 --> 00:23:43.814
Anyways, carry on.
00:23:43.814 --> 00:23:44.115
It was a joke.
00:23:44.115 --> 00:23:53.512
I do feel like that's where we're living in, and I think this passage is showing how great women are as the only ones that can bear children.
00:23:53.994 --> 00:24:07.565
Right and I think also what you just hit on, I think the anger, I think what you just described was masculinity and femininity and our culture kind of has masculinity in this way, like anger is not leadership.
00:24:07.565 --> 00:24:08.710
Maybe in the army it felt like it was.
00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:09.452
It's not right.
00:24:09.452 --> 00:24:14.346
If you're angry, you're, so that's horrible, you're out of control leadership right and so I'm like okay, that's um.
00:24:14.346 --> 00:24:18.424
So I think that there's this idea, that it's not ideal, but it is effective.
00:24:18.525 --> 00:24:19.287
It gets people to live.
00:24:19.287 --> 00:24:20.517
It's by fear.
00:24:20.517 --> 00:24:22.181
You're ruling by fear, which is not good.
00:24:22.181 --> 00:24:23.282
You might be not good.
00:24:23.282 --> 00:24:29.080
You might be effective in getting people to hurry up To do what they're supposed to do, you probably aren't accomplishing your goal.
00:24:29.101 --> 00:24:36.634
You probably aren't, because if you're doing it emotionally and flippantly, in your heat of emotion, it's not happening effectively.
00:24:36.634 --> 00:24:41.007
And I think femininity is not just beauty.
00:24:41.007 --> 00:24:53.364
There's plenty of women out there with lots of money for lots of plastic surgery and that has not created uh, that's not them being feminine in the way that God has designed femininity.
00:24:53.364 --> 00:25:08.768
And so I think that, um, I think that that matters and I think, going back to like what Holland, before we hopped on this podcast, we were discussing, like that, the Bible, there's a lot of Christians that would argue that they, when a man is in sin, he goes passive.
