March 5, 2025
Exploring Sin, Free Will, and Assurance of Salvation
344: Why didn't God create all humans with the same sinless nature as Jesus? Join Pastor Plek, Pastor Holland, and Jordan Smith for an insightful discussion as they tackle this profound theological question. They explore the intricacies of sin and moral perfection, considering themes of free will and the implications of divine love that allows for rejection. Echoing cinematic narratives like "Ex Machina," they ponder God's emotional capacity and the profound nature of love that encompasses both joy and pain, leading to redemption.
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Chapters
00:06 - Sin and Free Will
14:44 - Predestination and Evangelism
19:48 - Assurance of Salvation and Faith
30:01 - Faith, Free Will, and Eternity
Transcript
WEBVTT
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welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studios none other than pastor holland greg.
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Hello, welcome back.
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Thank you, yeah and uh, jordan smith, welcome once again thank you.
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I'm surprised you didn't go with the forensic scientist and comment again excited to be here, though, but you are.
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Are you in any sort of friend?
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No, I'm surprised you didn't go with the forensic scientist.
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Comment again Excited to be here, are?
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you in any sort of forensic?
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No, but what do you call what you do then?
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Data analytics, data analytics?
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It's pretty much forensics.
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If you ask me, what is forensics?
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Okay, anyway, we won't have to get into that, but we have a question that our people out there want to know.
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I'm going to read it.
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I'm going to read it for us.
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If God created Jesus, who lived as a sinless man and made his father proud, presenting an ideal for all humanity to aspire to, why wouldn't God have simply created everyone with the same moral perfection?
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From the outside?
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Clearly, god has demonstrated the ability to create a human who does not disappoint him, so why not extend this perfection to all of humanity from the start?
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Such an action would have spared us from countless centuries of turmoil, sin and the profound disappointment some feel towards God and he has felt for us so many times.
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Can you text that to me, real?
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quick.
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I will text it to you.
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I missed the beginning.
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Yeah, it is quite the challenge, I think, to kind of wrap our heads around this truth, but we'd love to kind of hear what you guys think, because I think this is where I think a lot of people are going.
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This is a common question that many people have.
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It's like, essentially, why does God allow people to sin?
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Why does God allow sin and suffering?
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Why does God allow pain?
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It all comes back to that same question.
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And what do you think when you first hear that?
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What's your thought?
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Just as the lay theologian, Jordan Smith, that's a question I've had too.
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You and I have talked about it and you always say it's a podcast question.
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It is and here we are.
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Here we are, so good job, God fulfilling that.
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I mean, the answer I hear is essentially free will, right, Like we had the choice to sin.
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So I mean, if we are all ideally perfect and all that, then we're just robots.
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Right, that is the number one thing is like if, if god created um, the world, or people, people, god created people to just do what they're programmed to do, then they wouldn't actually love him, they would just be robots.
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That there is no risk.
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The ultimate risk and this is why I think parents understand this the ultimate risk is um is being rejected.
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And so what?
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God?
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God, who is all powerful and all loving, and because he's all powerful and all loving, subjects himself to the possibility of rejection and goes into it loving his creation, that will one day reject him, which is sort of wild to think about.
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Have you ever?
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I know this might go into a movie.
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I think it's like Ex Machina or whatever.
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Never seen it.
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Oh, it's this guy.
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Like, it's kind of like.
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Uh, tech billionaire elon musk creates an ai robot that is so realistic that, uh, a dude falls in love with the robot oh, that's her right.
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That's what it's called is it called her oh?
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there was one recently like and this was like I think seven years ago, eight years ago, yep, and anyway.
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And he falls in love with the girl.
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It's a robot and she's got like a human face, but the rest is all you know, robot-y um and and he fall.
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He does fall in love with her, but she is only has a self-interest, she, she kills her creator, kills the guy that falls in love with her and then moves on and it's like this yeah, that makes sense uh, yeah, I wouldn't have seen it going yeah, oh sorry, yeah, sorry, spoiler alert.
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um, yeah, but I I think that's that's true risk in love that you're creating something that could ultimately kill you, which is what happens with the cross, but it was through the cross that the redemption of humanity was possible, where the Holy Spirit is then empowering Christians to do the right thing for the right reason.
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So, holland, where do you go with the first, on the free will aspect?
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Well, hold on.
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Yeah, go ahead.
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Can God feel rejection?
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yeah, I think he can like I think god feels joy and he feels pain, like I think that that just because so the cool thing about god is he's outside time and space, he's transcendent, but he's also imminent, which is why when he weeps at the funeral of Lazarus you know John 11, 35 shores verse in the Bible Jesus wept.
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He is crying not because he doesn't know it's going to happy, have a happy ending.
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He's crying because he's imminently aware of the emotions and the pain that people are experiencing.
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Yeah, I think that that particular case, though, is Jesus in his human nature feeling that, because otherwise that would contradict the uh, divine impassibility right that god is without passions, that he does not feel pain.
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um but things please him right, right, so can think and like and he can be sorry he made whoever.
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Is that just a?
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I think he can know he's going to do it and know the reason why he's going to do it and still be sorry about doing it anyway, like when he said I'm sorry, I made humanity and then he destroys it with a flood.
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Do you think that that?
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I mean, I think that's a feeling that he's experiencing, because he's feeling the rejection and feeling the darkness of the soul of humanity, but knowing transcendently that ultimately what the plan is, I think that's where the imminency of God and the transcendency of God mix together a little bit.
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It might get a little confusing, but I do think he has the ability to enjoy things, enjoy things, sing over things and at least the personification of God and this might be the part where it gets confusing.
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What is it?
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But I do feel like there is a part of regret and pain and all that, but he still knows it's the right thing to do, even though it causes pain for himself.
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Ultimately, jesus on the cross is experiencing the wrath of God and that's not a fun day.
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There's a real sorrow of my God.
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My God, why have you forsaken me, which you might say.
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That's just only in his human nature that he'd be experiencing that.
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Yeah, and I don't want to get too off track from the original question.
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Yeah, my bad.
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But yeah, I mean, that might be a whole other podcast.
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Right, right, that might be a yeah.
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Yeah, because the question is about why does God, why did?
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If he's Essentially, why did he allow sin?
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right, yeah, yeah, essentially, why does he allow?
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God's demonstrated the ability to create a human who does not disappoint him, so why not extend this perfection to all humanity from the start?
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Okay, I think even before that, like if I were reading the question, it starts off by saying if God created Jesus, which is not oh good point, reality, not true.
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God did not create Jesus, jesus is God, god.
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Not a created being, not a created being.
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Nice job, nice catch on that.
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So I think that would be one thing to address is that Jesus is not a created being, and Jesus's perfection is related to the fact that he is God in the flesh Right and he is not have he though he was.
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He though he's human, he is not a sinful human.
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He does not have the sinful nature of adam, and that is why he's not bound to nice fall into sin like we are.
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Yeah, um, all of us who come from adam um inherit his sinful nature, which jesus was did not inherit.
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So that's one aspect of the question with regard to jesus and his perfection yeah and I yeah.
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And just to go back, I mean, this person, whoever this is, is bringing back Arianism, which is that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, using that Colossians 1 and saying that he is a created being because, look, he's the firstborn of all creation, as opposed to seeing as, like he is, the, the head of all of creation, or the has the firstborn rights over all creation right as opposed to firstborn as a title, as a title similar to how david is called the firstborn, even though he was what the seven?
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seven, yeah so, but as title, meaning the one who inherits the rights and inherits the all of the blessings and possessions of the father, and so Jesus is the firstborn in that sense.
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So let's let's take that a step further.
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I don't want to.
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You can probably bring me back if I'm going too bonkers, but if it's the question that would say, if Jesus is God same substance as God, then let's say if Jesus is God same substance as God, then why doesn't he just make a zillion Jesuses?
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Well, that gets back to the same thing.
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That's a kind of a weird question, right Like Jesus cannot be created, right, thousands, or whatever you said, because Jesus is God, he's uncreated.
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But I think the question if we could maybe help the question, ask her out a little bit is saying well, okay, certainly, nothing is impossible for god and therefore, you know, jesus isn't the, you can't use that as an example, because jesus is god, but isn't god capable of creating a human who you know is um, who would not sin, right?
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Okay, so that's a different question, but I think it's getting at the same deal.
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Okay, yeah, and I think ultimately we are going to see that in the new heaven and new earth, like you have humans that are, uh, redeemed and don't have capacity to sin.
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so that's what the new yeah, exactly new creation um, after the return of jesus will be all of god's redeemed, all those who names are written in the lamb's book of life, who have put their faith in Jesus, who are saved, given glorified resurrection bodies completely free from not only the power and penalty of sin, but also the presence of sin Right.
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And so there will be no sin, no sickness, no sadness no tears.
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No tears.
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He'll wipe every tear away from our faces.
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No sickness, no sadness, no tears, no tears He'll wipe every tear away from our faces.
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So that is how that is.
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You know what this person's asking about the ability to create a human who does not disappoint him.
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That's what eternity will be New creation, filled with human beings glorified and resurrected by the grace of God and faith in Jesus, who fully please God for all eternity.
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Right Now.
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Let's go to the question, then, that why not just start?
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there.
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Yeah, yeah and I think that gets back to the robotic nature of then.
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You get away from the ability to be rejected and there is no risk and there is no real love, and so what so?
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I would yeah, go ahead, real love, and so so I would, if you go ahead.
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Just on that note, um, if you're defining real love by risk, god doesn't take any risks because you know he's omniscient, omnipotent.
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Good point, yeah, so I understand from a human standpoint but, that's not essential to love as love Like um right, but I think God loves us in a true way, without any risk.
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Okay, fair enough, but I will say that you, if it's a robot, there is no rejection, there is no relationship.
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It's just a program, which is why as much as, for example, as much as you can feel connected to an AI like chat, gpt or something, it's not real because it can't, it doesn't have the ability to think on its own.
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It's not.
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Is it sentient?
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Is that the word?
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It has no conscience of its own.
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Yeah, so I think the idea of us loving God, of our own free will, having the choice to sin but choosing God, I think that's one philosophically and logically, I think that makes sense Biblically.
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I don't know that.
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That's not where the Bible tends to, how the Bible tends to answer that question.
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I don't think I would say that there is, but it makes sense?
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Right, I would say that there is so, but it makes sense.
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Before sin there was free will, and then, after Adam and Eve fell, then there was no free will because they were damned to their sin, and so they could not choose God apart from the grace of God, which is what we're kind of agree with that.
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but where I was going was there are other arguments that explain why God allowed sin, One in particular, I think Romans 9,.
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Paul asks it as a rhetorical question, Right?
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right, right, and then answers it.
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So he doesn't necessarily say this is why God does it.
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But what if God, desiring to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory, for vessels of mercy which he has prepared beforehand for glory?
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And so he brings up the situation you know asking what if god did it?
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For this reason, essentially, if no one ever sinned, we would, um, there would be no reason for god's wrath.
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It's good, right, yeah, god's wrath which I think you preached on this a few weeks ago.
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God's wrath actually glorifies god, um.
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Also, there would be no occasion for god's grace if never sinned.
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And so God's wrath and God's grace both magnify the um, the, the love of God and the character of God in ways that would not have been seen, apart from people being plunged into, you know, all the disgusting, awful stuff of sin, and then God sending his son to rescue us out of it.
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That actually glorifies God and shows aspects of his multifaceted glory um that wouldn't have been shown were sin never to have entered creation yeah, and so does that make sense?
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no, it totally makes sense, which is well, hold on.
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So that verse that you just read has always been kind of difficult for me, in the sense that it says god prepared beforehand certain people for destruction, right?
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So just never had a chance for salvation.
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If he prepared them that, right, the choice of words seems off no, no.
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So this gets into a doctrine called super lapsarianism or infralapsarianism, which means before god thought of the fall, the lapse, before he thought whom he would save and who he would love, who would be the vessels that were honorable use.
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And he's like how can I make vessels of dishonorable use?
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Oh, the fall and I'll redeem the good ones.
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And then there's something in for lapsarianism, which is he thought of?
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First he thought of um, he wanted to create humanity.
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Then he realized if he gave people free will there would be a fall.
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And then he chose to save some for honorable purposes and the rest he would leave for dishonorable purposes yeah, but to me that's just hard to chew.
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Swallow, yeah, it just seems messed up why, why are some people just screwed and bound for hell, like without having an opportunity that to me I don't know, like I don't want to go to hell and burn for the rest of eternity just because god's like no, you suck yeah, and remember, remember there's variant levels of hell, like to the degree by which you are dark and evil, that's the degree by which you'll receive separation from God, or like the darkness of it and how hard your heart is.
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But, yeah, that's the part that people get kind of offended by.
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But, on the flip side, if you are saved, that's very endearing and exciting.
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That God chose me, like I am valuable enough, that God said I want this one, and that means something.
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And so that's why Romans 9 is such a powerful verse for those who are saved and such a hard verse for those who are not, which is why, then, we compel people to be saved, like there's second Corinthians.
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Five is like calling us to urge people to be saved.
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Now, ultimately, ultimately, that's up to God and he's in complete control of that Um, and he gives people the Holy spirit by his own grace.
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But man, um that you can't have, um, uh, god's either, because if it's not that way, then it's by work.
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So you're saved.
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And that seems impossible because we look around and everybody's works based on their training, based on their upbringing, based on their raising.
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Like it seems like you're born in the good people land, where people were affluent and had enough food and water and then have like trauma from childhood.
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They're not going to have issues and they're probably going to get to heaven way easier, as opposed to God's sheer grace in it all.
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So it doesn't matter if you're a drug addict kid or a drug addict or a murderer or whatever environment you grew up in.
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There's no amount of training that's going to get you into heaven, other than God's unbelievable grace, which puts more of the emphasis on God's choosing, which then puts the emphasis on his great love for us, as opposed to our ability to earn our way or be something.
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And that's the whole point.
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That Paul is saying is that you can't by your own volition, by your own ability, make yourself righteous enough for God, because no one is righteous no, not one.
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Okay.
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So if let's say, I feel prompted to evangelize, to someone and I choose not to.
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Am I responsible if that person goes to hell?
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So thankfully, no, but you missed out an opportunity to be obedient to Jesus.
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Okay, so why evangelize at all?
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Then command, it gives you purpose and you get to see God's work right in front of you.
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Because if you're not involved in evangelism then that's, in general, where your faith grows stagnant and you get angry and you don't get to see God's grace extended beyond yourself and you get to see the expansion of the kingdom, and that should just ignite your heart.
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Every time somebody gets it for the first time, it should make you go.
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Oh, I remember what that was like when I was lost in sin and, oh, praise God, he has chosen to save another person, can I?
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jump in on that too, Please.
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It's kind of like saying, well, if God do, I believe God's going to take care of my children yes, I do.
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Well, then why should I parent them?
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Why should I feed them if God's going to feed them?
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Well, because God ordains not only the ends but also the means.
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He ordains not only the outcomes but also the process by which the outcomes are possessed.
00:19:46.428 --> 00:19:48.029
That's a way smarter way of saying what I said.
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So one this is the Westminster Confession of Faith.
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There's a whole section that addresses this.
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It's a good thing you have a bible that has all the creeds in the esv creeds and confessions bible.
00:19:56.946 --> 00:20:02.286
It's yeah, it's well, you know it's a superior bible I, I have things that are.
00:20:02.487 --> 00:20:04.394
There's things that are great about it and things that aren't so great.
00:20:04.394 --> 00:20:06.801
Okay, they just released an update changing some stuff.
00:20:06.801 --> 00:20:08.185
They change stuff all the time.
00:20:08.185 --> 00:20:08.816
It's kind of annoying.
00:20:08.816 --> 00:20:12.303
But, um, in the back it's got westminster confession of faith.
00:20:12.303 --> 00:20:17.433
Um, as well, as there's more written in the Westminster Confession than the London Baptist Confession.
00:20:17.714 --> 00:20:17.815
Yeah.
00:20:18.715 --> 00:20:36.788
But it says there's a section of God's eternal decree, and it says section six on here as God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.
00:20:36.788 --> 00:20:39.230
So essentially that same thing.
00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:44.615
God has not just appointed that they will be saved, he has also appointed how they will come to be saved.
00:20:44.615 --> 00:20:49.267
And what he has appointed in terms of the means is the proclamation of the gospel.
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How can they hear without a preacher?
00:20:51.661 --> 00:20:52.082
Right?
00:20:52.082 --> 00:20:53.246
It's Romans 10.
00:20:54.576 --> 00:21:02.105
So it's not just that God has ordained someone would be saved, but he's ordained that, in order to get that person saved, someone's going to go and preach the gospel to them.
00:21:02.105 --> 00:21:10.063
Just like I know God wants to take care of my children, I understand the primary way he's going to do that in this time is through me, their father.
00:21:10.063 --> 00:21:11.165
Does that make sense?
00:21:11.165 --> 00:21:21.037
Yeah, but what do you mean by by?
00:21:21.037 --> 00:21:23.022
You know he's going to take care of your kids, like, couldn't one of them be bound for hell already?
00:21:23.022 --> 00:21:29.298
Well, I meant in a temporal sense like, um, you know, shelter, food, um, I, I believe god is a provider, but in terms of their eternal salvation, um, we don't know.
00:21:29.298 --> 00:21:30.701
We're not god.
00:21:30.701 --> 00:21:32.903
We don't know who's saved and who's not saved.
00:21:32.903 --> 00:21:47.029
So we want to preach the gospel indiscriminately to everyone and I want to, as a father, in terms of the spiritual state of my kids, do everything I can to pray for them, to disciple them, to lead them to faith in God.
00:21:47.029 --> 00:21:51.560
But ultimately, their eternity is in God's hands and I trust God with that.
00:22:10.615 --> 00:22:14.249
And I trust God with that, I have every good reason to believe that they will be saved and go to heaven, because I believe God works through the means of godly families discipling their kids and following Jesus.
00:22:14.249 --> 00:22:14.767
But I can't say with absolute certainty.
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Only God knows with absolute certainty.
00:22:15.351 --> 00:22:15.347
Does that make sense?
00:22:15.347 --> 00:22:17.984
Yeah, I mean, I remember when I did the membership application here, and it's like on a scale of one to 10, now how much do you think you're saved?
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And I said nine.
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I think I told you that already.
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I'll never give a 10 to that.
00:22:21.942 --> 00:22:23.140
It's in God's hand.
00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:24.234
Now Well.
00:22:24.255 --> 00:22:40.702
So here's my pushback on that is to say that the reason that every Christian, that I would submit to you, that every Christian should say 10, is that it's not based on your obedience, it's not based on your good works, it's based on Jesus.
00:22:40.702 --> 00:22:44.269
And so Jesus died and rose.
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His death on the cross was sufficient to pay for our sin debt to God.
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His resurrection is, you know, a demonstration of God's power to raise the dead and his promise to save all those who believe in him.
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So if you believe in Jesus, it's a 10.
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If you don't believe in Jesus, it's a zero.
00:23:04.078 --> 00:23:08.471
There's a, really a five, a six a seven, an eight a nine.
00:23:08.613 --> 00:23:16.108
Yeah, it's really just saying I don't know if I really believe in Jesus or not, and so I don't know if that's what you mean by it.
00:23:16.108 --> 00:23:19.821
But if you're saying I'm a nine, what about like Doubting Thomas right?
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Is he a?
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10 or what?
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.284
Doubting Thomas was definitely a 10 because Jesus showed up.
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And also he wasn't doubting whether or not Jesus's death and resurrection were sufficient for his salvation.
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