Transcript
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Welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor Plek, and with me in studio once again is Machine Gun Nick Howdy, and then also Chris Bowers, who is our resident Christian culture expert.
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Welcome, chris Bowers, with a latest culture report.
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What do we got?
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Thanks, wow, I wouldn't go so far as to say no, he's a christian culture expert.
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Yeah, you're definitely a christian culture expert I do like to follow big eva.
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Um shorthand for evangelical world.
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I didn't even know big eva.
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I don't use that big eva.
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I love that big evangelical, I love that.
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That's so.
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Give me the industrial complex.
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Um, so the other day you had uh, you guys were talking about the pastor and me and Katie Katie.
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Yes, uh, talking about the big controversy that went down at the stronger men's conference with, uh, which is a James river church, uh, which is an assemblies of god, denomination, um, their stronger men's conference is massive.
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It's been happening for years, uh, if you're not familiar with assemblies of god, it leans, charismatic, not fully charismatic, fully charismatic.
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To be saved, I think you have to speak in tongues oh nice, yeah, yeah, so very, which is interesting because Mark Driscoll, who got invited there, is not a charismatic.
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Well, he is a mystic though, yes, so I mean he dabbles in the charismatic.
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So, however, that entire blow up that went down that you all discussed, yeah.
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So let's review real quick.
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It was.
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They brought a former stripper who now is a Christian yes, a male stripper.
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He rips off his shirt, he kind of does a striptease thing, climbs the pole, swallows a sword and everyone cheers yep, super, uh, super acrobatic.
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He's been on america's got talent multiple times very athletic dude probably the least culpable person in this entire thing, right, because all he did was do what he does, do what he does and got paid for kind of a weird thing at a men's event, I would say.
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A lot of people say, but okay, whatever.
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Um, so then Mark gets up there, uh, the following day and just as he says verbal processes out loud and starts making all these comparisons to uh Old Testament Jezebel spirit.
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Ashera.
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Ashera poles a lot of Old Testament figure.
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Ashera poles.
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It was like a fertility thing, so you kind of have.
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You know it would be very representative of having sex in some way.
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Yeah.
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So when I first saw the original one I was like here we go in some way.
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Yeah.
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So when I first saw the original one, I was like here we go.
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Mark Driscoll, old school.
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Yeah.
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Uh, pastor Mo brought up the original old school controversy from when he was at Mars Hill.
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Screaming at people about how dare you?
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Yeah, uh, which hands down my favorite sermon he's ever preached.
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I don't know what it is, uh, when a pastor yells at me I am exhorted to righteousness and I love it Not everybody has that.
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No, that's good to know.
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I'm going to keep that in my toolbox.
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So that takes place and then he gets kicked off stage by Pastor John.
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Yeah, then other stuff happens.
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He gets brought back up on stage and they do this kind of quasi-apology where Pastor Mark just kind of says, hey, I should have talked about it with you before, I just kind of went off, but he doesn't actually apologize for it.
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It's weird, because he just randomly just starts talking, have talked about it with you before.
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I just kind of went off.
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Well, and he doesn't actually apologize for it it's weird because he just randomly just starts talking.
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Anyway, sorry, so yeah, so he gives a half apology gives kind of a half apology, but there's some other weird things going on, because I, pastor john, ends up making this goes old testament, but then draws a connection to people like himself that are anointed by god and one cannot criticize them.
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Criticizing leads to unbelief and you're operating out of your flesh and so he probably was going with a moses type mantle of when you, when you murmured against moses, you were murmuring against god's anointed and therefore the earth swallows you up.
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Yeah, this is a Christian.
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Yes, they're calling themselves Christian.
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Oh yeah, oh, 100% they're calling themselves Christian.
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No, but there is a part of like if God has put you in the office of elder or leadership, you don't go criticize without having and go to him personally with one or two witnesses or two or three witnesses.
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Office of elder or leadership, you know you don't go criticize without having and you know go to them personally with two, one or two witnesses or two or three witnesses, and that's an important aspect, right Is this?
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old Testament law.
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No, well, that's sticks.
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That's Matthew 18.
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Matthew 18.
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Oh, they talked John.
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Pastor John mentioned this should have been in Matthew 18.
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There's different.
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I've seen different interpretations out there because this was a very public thing and therefore it's not.
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This person has sinned against you.
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Therefore, you go and talk to them in private they don't listen.
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Then you bring two or three don't listen to them.
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Then you bring the elders they don't listen to them.
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Then you bring the church and then they go out.
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But that was private sin, right?
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This was hey, we did this on a public stage before a bunch of men, and he, pastor Mark, in his initial verbal processing because he I was going to say rebuke, but he literally says this is not a rebuke, it's just an observation.
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So kind of sketch, all sorts of things.
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Pastor john's got all sorts of controversies on his side as well.
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Pastor mark's got the whole mars hill controversy, passion.
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Lindell's known for things like, uh, regrowing toes.
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Yeah and then stating I have proof, won't show.
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You will not show the proof.
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Um, he's heavily tied to Bethel.
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They share stages.
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I actually had this thought earlier today.
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Is say same situation there's a stronger men's conference.
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Pastor John invites you.
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Would you?
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I don't think you would ever have pastor John preached from our pulpit.
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Would you, however, think you would ever have pastor john preach from our pulpit?
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Huh?
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Would you, however, go and speak knowing that you have potentially a group that isn't your flock, but the?
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opportunity.
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Yeah, I would definitely be there, but I wouldn't make a big stink about whatever was going on.
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Uh, and I think that's just my personality I I probably would have been like I would love to kind of preach the gospel.
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The reason why I know I do I do this is what I did back before I was a pastor.
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I was a like author, christian author, and I would go on charismatic tv shows and um man, jesse duplantis interviewed me one time and he's about as charismatic and like out there and behind the stage he's like you want to know, you want to know how to raise money.
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You got to build a builder, buy an airplane.
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I was sitting there going, oh man, I hope, please, jesus, I don't want to get on the set with him and him lead the conversation a direction of like the prosperity gospel, like this is how you get money, and I was just like slowly dying on the inside but I felt like, oh no, I'm going to.
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If he goes that direction, I'm going to rebuke and go.
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That's not what I stand for or whatever.
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But then, thankfully, when he got, he was, he was nailed it Like there was no problem.
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I got to talk about God as a perfect father.
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I got to show how Jesus showed up in combat and I was able to speak really clear uh, the gospel in a way that I felt was very helpful to that audience.
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Gotcha.
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So there is a line, though, that you would potentially push back and rebuke.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, if yeah if it was me personally, like if he was like um, well, hey, you know, you know, if someone's not really saved, if they don't speak in tongues, are they not be like Whoa, hey, no, actually.
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Or like you, no actually.
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Or like you know, like you know that god really wants you to be wealthy, and whatever.
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Whatever I'd be like well, not necessarily, I would put, I'd push back.
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So what if it's just?
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events taking place.
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I some of the extracurricular events at the conference.
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Maybe it's it's men.
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They're trying to get all kinds of men because that conference is targeted at bringing non-believers in.
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They bring in jello wrestling, jello Something that is not former male stripper, it's female strippers.
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But why have people taking their clothes off at all?
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This is Christianity.
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We try to be modest, upstanding citizens who even pay their taxes, pay the Caesar what's owed.
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And now we're going to go and take our People, are going to take our clothes off for our amusement at a.
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I just couldn't.
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I would.
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What?
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Would you watch UFC?
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That's different.
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They actually had a boxing event there as well, and so guys had their shirts off for that yeah.
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Okay, but you're boxing.
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I'm not saying, but to have a stripper.
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Would I personally host that event?
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Heck, no Right, I don't think that's.
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Obviously, because I don't think I'd be here.
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It's whether you would speak at that event.
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Yeah, I think I would and I kind of figured you would.
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I would, just because I feel like I would have an opportunity.
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I don't know if I'd go full Mark.
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Driscoll on it.
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You would end up in front of an audience that you listen to whatever, or I want to preach to that guy, and then I'd have an impact beyond that moment.
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That would be my hope.
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How do you put aside your differences with the stuff that's going on?
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So that's where, okay.
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So in some cases this is where you go.
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Is that that's a preference thing that I personally probably wouldn't have at my church?
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But that's a church, but I probably wouldn't have a stripper on a pole.
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Just wouldn't go there, wouldn't have a stripper.
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Wouldn't probably have jello wrestling Probably not going to do that, but I wouldn't mind being able to talk to nonbelievers who showed up there.
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I'd be all for that.
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I guess maybe to your question is how do you and this is a good question for you to answer?
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To your question is how do you and this is a good question to answer how do you discern who to be seen associated?
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to is this kind of more of a political like stand, like playing politics.
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I mean by like.
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I'm not going to address this directly.
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I'm going to say something, maybe on the side or in my sermon, that would maybe open up the minds of the leaders of this organization.
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So I, you know, I've like when, for example, poetry slams.
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I used to be before.
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I was pastoring and I was in the army, which was really fun.
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I would be the weirdest looking guy at the poetry slam because I'd have a haircut.
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Anyway, I remember this one time I met this poetry slam and these guys are, like you know, completely out there, atheistic, agnostic, saying sex, drugs, rock and roll in their thing.
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And then I get up there and I share the gospel.
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I'll never forget this.
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This dude wearing he must've been at it was like year 2000.
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The guy had this jean jacket, vest with jeans and had pins look, Looked like he was from Vietnam and pins all over the place.
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And then he follows me out into the parking lot.
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I'll never forget this and I thought he wanted to fight me because I just shared the gospel.
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And he looks at me and he's like angry and I'm like, okay, we're doing this, we're going, I guess we're fighting right here.
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But just want you to know something.
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You've got balls.
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And I was like uh, uh, thanks, and I was so confused I just shared the guy anyway.
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So does that give me an opportunity?
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Especially if there's law?
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I would kind of gauge how many lost people are going to be there at this thing.
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Um, you know how many people that are far from God that are going to be here?
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I would kind of you know it's different in every sort of like thing Um, if I had to follow the sword swallower.
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That might be a little challenging, but I would definitely kind of go at it with like, okay, I would preach the message.
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I was there to preach and share the gospel and hope that somebody there that didn't know God and maybe they came for some swords falling, they left with the gospel, I don't know.
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I think that's where I think in that circumstance I would probably never host it, but I would probably preach at that and I'd have to go with.
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Would I be able to maintain my own testimony there?
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I think they're like John MacArthur recently was criticized because he was on the stage, I think, with somebody, and then he like I shouldn't.
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He was on the stage, I think, with somebody, and then he like I shouldn't have been on that stage with that guy, cause I kind of gave validity to that guy.
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And I don't know if you're giving validity to that guy and maybe I'm not this where it's like nobody knows who I am, so it doesn't matter and I and so that's tough.
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You know, if you're at a level of John MacArthur and you're on the stage with I don't know somebody from Bethel, like are you going to be ruining your witness?
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Right, and I guess there the context matters, Like are we doing this as a debate bringing different theological views, or are we presenting like we're a united front?
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Because I mean, would you?
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Yeah.
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Bethel TD.
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Jakes Paula White.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
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Yeah, because I would want to speak to the audience that they're speaking to 100%.
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So I think there'd be a part of me where I and I think I've seen this at a lot of events where, like the guy that was more like Votie Bauckham spoke at Andy Stanley's church and like I fell in love with Votody bockham because he was at andy stanley's church pre we don't need the old testament or no, I was probably like unhit yourself, but voting was there and he spoke to the young adults and it was mind-blowingly awesome.
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So vody has vody and vody has been willing to speak at a lot of places and he carries a certain gravitas, where one he never pulls a punch from the stage ever so I think he already has a platform when he steps on.
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You already know he is not affirming anybody else on that stage yeah, and mark driscoll and mark just, we obviously know he'll speak anywhere.
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I probably mark driscoll spoke at the crystal cathedral, which you know.
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Shortly after I spoke there and I was like wow, that was that was when he was lead pastor at Mars Hill and he spoke at the crystal cathedral, which is like you know, uh, uh, positive thinking kind of messages and he brought the gospel and they loved it and I was like it blew my mind.
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So I was like I don't want to miss an opportunity to speak the gospel to an environment where somebody might not hear it and they've been exposed to all these other wacky things.
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I would love to speak truth in that, even at the cost of someone might think I'm associated with those people, just like I feel like Jesus felt like he was associated with the sinners because he ate with the sinners and it's really the only cost is your reputation, honestly.
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Yeah, no, a hundred percent, and so I think that's really good.
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So let let's let's jump back into the craziness.
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yeah, because it keeps getting okay, yeah, I, I think this is where you.
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This is why I call you the christian culture update guy or expert, because you follow these stories all the way to the ground.
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I'm kind of like on the next one yeah, so I on top of this, um, there's, there's two different directions.
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We'll go with the one that kind of in chronological order.
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Yeah, um, justin peters, who's, I think he's been involved with a number of, like the gospel projects uh, not the gospel project, but like, um, the gospel project is like a children's ministry curriculum yeah, he's reformed.
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Uh, so super solid, yep, um, definitely like as far away from charismatic as you can get, more like in the vein of john macarthur a cessationist?
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yes so he had a podcast in in uh review of this stronger men's thing and brought in a guy who was security at john macarthur's strange fire.
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Oh when mark John MacArthur's Strange Fire.
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Oh, when Mark Driscoll showed up, when Mark Driscoll showed up, woo and apparently let's goes into a whole bunch of background of where security supposedly tossed, confiscated Pastor Mark's books and did all this and they told Mark to take his books and the security and then he goes.
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No, you guys can just have them.
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The security team still went, took the box and put it in Mark's car, basically making it seem the biggest problem is that there's all these people saying different things without a real.
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But that podcast was alleging that Mark was doing things to drum up social media, drum up the news.
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I mean, that's his, his thing that was his thing, so I'm like I yeah, I love mark driscoll and then I'm like mark, why?
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why, you don't need that, you don't need it.
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You're so good without all the other garbage, just be you and you don't.
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And I think this, you know, is that fear, is that like a need attention I don't know what that is and I get wanting to sell books, I get wanting to make a splash and impact, and clearly he was on the news all the time.
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He was interviewed by all the big secular people, but somewhere along the line I felt like Mark stopped pastoring and just was looking to I don't know, I don't know what he was looking for because he was arguably as big as you could get.
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As big as you could get, he was the face of young, restless and reformed yep.
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I started act 29 like yep, I mean they were doing massive church and now act 29 is egalitarian yeah, uh it.
00:17:47.232 --> 00:17:48.295
It's insane.
00:17:48.295 --> 00:17:56.049
Uh, where that when and mark was already big and his books were already selling, right when the strange fire conference thing and I.
00:17:56.371 --> 00:18:09.769
But here's the thing and maybe I've, and I think I've probably done this is where adrian with my wife would say chris, like in my past I probably matured some, but I would, that I would want to kind of create a, something.
00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:13.621
Because in me was like, if I don't, no one will Like I had.
00:18:13.621 --> 00:18:16.711
And then she would say you don't need that.
00:18:16.711 --> 00:18:18.587
And I'd be like, fuck you know.
00:18:18.587 --> 00:18:26.942
And so I think that might've been just spiritual immaturity and Mark had cast away anyone who would speak into his life like that.
00:18:26.942 --> 00:18:34.247
And if you surround yourself in the echo chamber of like do it, do it, do it, do it, it'd be great if you did that, then he's just like yeah, maybe that's what God's calling in my life.
00:18:34.647 --> 00:18:35.647
That's a funny statement.
00:18:35.647 --> 00:18:43.833
The echo chamber that's what we're calling group think now, yeah, the echo chamber is a horrible idea If you don't have somebody that will say wait a minute.
00:18:43.833 --> 00:18:50.718
In your organization, at any level that you're starting I mean, I wrote reports on this in college.
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.743
Pastor Chris, do you have anybody in your life that's able to push back and say, hey, what about this?
00:18:56.743 --> 00:18:57.807
Are you thinking about that?
00:18:58.008 --> 00:19:00.926
Yeah, well, thankfully the Elder Board does a pretty good job of that.
00:19:00.926 --> 00:19:05.708
We were just talking about my review this morning.
00:19:05.708 --> 00:19:16.827
Oh fun, and you know those always haven't gone well, but you know what they're needed and I think any.
00:19:16.827 --> 00:19:25.028
It's funny Anytime someone looks at your life they're going to find stuff that's not pretty and I don't want to look at it.
00:19:25.571 --> 00:19:26.343
Yeah, I don't like it when people go.
00:19:26.343 --> 00:19:26.644
You have pride.
00:19:26.644 --> 00:19:27.388
You don't think before you speak.
00:19:27.388 --> 00:19:28.093
You don't want to look at it.
00:19:28.093 --> 00:19:28.958
Yeah, I don't like it when people go.
00:19:28.958 --> 00:19:29.319
You have pride.
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.426
You don't think before you speak.
00:19:32.426 --> 00:19:33.410
You don't blah, blah, blah.
00:19:33.410 --> 00:19:42.923
You should have known, oh boy, that just you led this wrong, you said that wrong, you did that, whatever, and you're just like, oh lordy, and you really have to, you know.
00:19:42.923 --> 00:19:47.553
The question then becomes am I the crazy person, or are they?
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.003
You then becomes am I the crazy person or are they?
00:19:53.003 --> 00:19:54.307
You know like which one is it?
