Transcript
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
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I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studio is none other than mr jordan smith.
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Jordan, how are you doing?
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I'm doing great, chris.
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It's good to be here I am so pumped that you were here, because we're talking about a subject that's near and dear to the hearts of all human beings.
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Uh, we're gonna be talking about sexual predators.
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I wasn't expecting this conversation to be here, but here we are, and also joining us from the Cody Sparks Band.
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Mr Cody Sparks, hello, all right, so here's the question.
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We're going to jump right into this because I don't like to kind of beat around the bush.
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All right, we don't need any small talk.
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We're going to get right to this question, and here it is.
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It says how should the church handle sexual assault and sexual predators within the congregation?
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When should the police be involved?
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How do we ensure we are protecting women and children while culprits?
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And then it ends with a question mark there, which I'm assuming they meant how do we ensure we are protecting women and children while church is going on?
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All right.
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So let's break this down and I want to hear first your thoughts.
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Jordan.
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Well, I'd be curious, like how do you define sexual assault?
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Like, is that a guy touching a girl's butt, or what's going on here?
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Yeah, when you hear the word sexual assault, what do you think, Cody?
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That's a tough one.
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Probably something really bad like a rape or yeah one of those issues.
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Yeah, I mean, that's what I say too.
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Yeah thinking of sexual assault doesn't make me think of what the definition of sexual assault actually is, which is interesting yeah, um, okay.
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So here is so they.
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How should the church handle sexual assault?
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First off, we need to know what sexual assault is.
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I brought brought up the Texas penal code because I, you know, I don't know if cause I think is it grabbing someone's butt or is it rape?
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Where is in between those two things?
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And it says the person uh, a sexual assault is occurs.
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A person commits that offense If the person intentionally or knowingly causes the penetration of the anus or sexual organ of another person by any means without that person's consent.
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B cause the penetration of the mouth of another person by the sexual organ of the actor without that person's content, or cause the sexual organ of another person without that person's consent to contact or penetrate the mouth, anus or sexual organ of another person, including the actor, or regardless of whether the person knows the age of the child at the time of the offense.
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The person intentionally or knowingly causes the penetration of the anus or sexual organ of a child by any means, and all that, then, of a child, if you know they're a child at the time or not.
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So penetration.
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Penetration with a sexual organ is sexual assault.
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So how should the church handle sexual assault?
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We would say we need the police involved.
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Right, totally.
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Because now this is where I'm not sure if I've ever shared.
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I actually think this came up on the last podcast that we did last week with Holland Gregg, where we talked about God's relationship to the government, God's relationship to the church, God's relationship to the family, and God has a unique relationship with each one of those entities, but those entities all cross over each other in one form or fashion.
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Obviously, the church should be speaking truth into the government, which is enforcing laws, and the laws that are created are to help the family flourish.
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And then the church also speaks into the family as well.
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So here I think, how should the church handle sexual assault?
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Tell the police If you see anything like this happen.
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You need, I mean yeah, that's pretty bad, though.
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I mean that is pretty bad.
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Well, yeah, but that.
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So sexual assault isn't that's what I mean.
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That's the question how should the church handle sexual?
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Assault it's horrible.
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And then sexual predators well, you send them to jail, right?
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I mean, if someone's committed a sexual assault yeah, there's, yeah see well, I mean, I mean they have to have due trial and all that.
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Yeah, that's fine, you get your justice.
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But let's go to this question.
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I think this one comes up and I shouldn't be irritated by this, because I think nobody knows this, but maybe because I hear it so much, I get irritated by it.
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So please forgive me, and it's this Whenever I go to a, whenever Adrian and I go to counseling or we go to the doctor, the person, I feel like they say this to make themselves feel more important, and I know that's probably not true, but they say you know, listen, there are certain things that I have to report as a mandatory reporter and I'm going to go.
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So everybody's a mandatory reporter.
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I don't even have a special credential and I'm a mandatory report.
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If you see a sexual assault and you don't say something, or you know of it happening and you don't do anything, then that you are failing to be the mandatory um reporter that all the state of Texas is.
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So, like the statute of limitations on that right, like what, if you hear about something that happened a year or two years ago, are you still supposed to report that?
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If you see it, you're a man.
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If someone tells you like, for example, someone says like I'm going to harm myself, you're a mandatory reporter.
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And if someone says like, someone.
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I'm going to shoot up the blah, blah, blah.
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You should, you should, your mandatory, mandatory report right on that somebody is is beating me and sexually attacking me, then you're like oh well, crud, I need to go and report that.
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That is like.
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Like, as a, this isn't just for counselors, this is for all people in the state of texas that you, if someone says I'm going to self-harm or I'm being currently harmed, then you need to demand.
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You're a mandatory reporter well, my gosh, I hope you would do that, if this is the definition of that, and you saw that my god, I would hope that you would report that you would be a sad person if you didn't report like harm, like that, right, um, yeah, so anyway, I just, I always, I always like get a little frustrated when I probably shouldn't.
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I'm not gonna get frustrated, I'm gonna.
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I'm gonna make sure that that.
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What do you get frustrated about?
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If someone doesn't like the person goes.
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Well, I'm a mandatory reporter, so I have to.
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Yeah, they're not like required to say that so are we?
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that's my point.
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No, I'm saying required required, as like a doctor, to officially say that because of their profession.
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As a texan, that's how awesome we are right, I don't walk around him.
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A mandatory reporter.
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What I'm saying is within their profession.
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Maybe they legally have to say that.
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Maybe that's it.
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Maybe I should be irritated, I don't know.
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Just you're right, right because I'm like, like where did that come?
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Like, why do you have have to tell me?
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Well, you know, as a mandatory reporter, maybe that's part of their training is that you have to say that.
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Also.
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So you're aware.
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So if there's something that you really don't want to say, don't say it.
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Right, okay, okay, all right, maybe I should get off my high horse.
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They're like, hey, fair warning here I it's like everybody in the state of Texas is a mandatory.
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It applies In fact, here's what it says Report that any person suspecting child abuse or neglect must immediately make a report.
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It applies to all individuals, not just teachers or healthcare professionals.
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Also covered suspected abuse, neglect or exploitation of elderly persons, persons with disabilities or those receiving services from a certain home and community-based providers.
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So that's the state of Texasxas yeah, well, this definitely puts out.
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Uh, hey, mind your own business yeah that doesn't exist in certain things, I guess, yeah, it is against the law not to um but then you also but that's another thing like hey, you saw someone beating the heck out of their wife and you report it, and then they could come and then she could say, no, I'm not pressing charges, and no, and then it's dropped.
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Right now you're a dirtbag, yeah exactly that's where it gets challenging.
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I don't know what you do about that, but that's what the law says that's interesting but again yeah I think here's what's weird.
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I don't know if you know this um, people have had the cops called on them for sending their nine-year-old to the park to play there's done okay, and this is where your frustration start.
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Like turns to me, where I get frustrated, where it's the dumbest things nowadays that, hey, I left my dog.
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I don't have a dog, so this isn't about me.
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I left my dog in the car, running full ac, with the windows down for to run into the store to grab milk and run out.
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The cops have been called, animal control has been called in there and you're like what in the world?
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Yeah, in what?
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world.
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So I guess you know, and I think this is why you have laws for the people who don't like, who don't have social awareness, and so you go the better safe than sorry.
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Sure, I mean, I agree.
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If I saw that I'd be like, oh no, worries, right.
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But if I saw the car off, I went over and looked at it, looked inside, that's a dude.
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Yeah, a hundred percent.
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So I, so I, I guess you just have those people who just are not the Karens of the world.
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Yeah, well, they just aren't socially aware people.
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And God you know, they're sweet people, I'm sure, but they don't know how to be socially aware, wouldn't you agree?
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Yeah, totally.
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But I think, to get back to the question at hand, how does the church handle sexual assault?
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I would just say the church doesn't right, they give it to the authorities at that point.
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Yeah, we as mandatory reporters yes since we're mandatory reporters.
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But again, that's like we're talking about.
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Like a, like a, like a slap on the butt, would you say that was sexual assault.
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Wow I don't know.
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It depends on the intent and that's what I was about to say, so that's not something that you would report yeah because that's something, one that's something you should handle with that person who did that.
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But if you saw that happen, you, you knowing that person, could be like, hey, are you okay?
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Was that real like you?
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Good, right.
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But again, I guess it depends on the scenario in the situation and knowing like what's going on so something like that should be handled by the church, you would say right what's that?
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like a slap on the butt or something, not literally a sexual assault as defined by the penal code.
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Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's where the church would come in.
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However, let's say, a person feels like that was sexual assault and they're going to run into the problem of they weren't penetrated or whatever.
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But if they take it to the police, then it becomes a police issue and then the church is moved out until it's decided it's not a church issue or not a police or government issue.
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I mean that could still be considered assault, though, right?
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Yeah, that could be, so that's assault.
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It would be like physical assault.
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Maybe Assault is intentionally, knowing or recklessly causing bodily injury to another, intentionally or knowingly threatening another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse, or intentionally or knowingly causing physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other regards the contact as offensive or provocative.
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So there, it's not sexual assault but that could be just straight assault.
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Yeah, you're not going to be a petty on that one.
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So that would be assault.
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And so that's where.
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Or sexual offense yeah, if that wouldn't be sexual assault, that would just be assault Because that's intentionally, or but it's intentionally, or knowingly caused physical contact with another when the person knows, or should reasonably believe, that the other regard that contact is offensive or provocative.
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So that's where, okay, someone grabs the butt and then the person then determines that it would be on them.
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Like, let's say, someone reports that then that person needs to say, hey, that person assaulted me.
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If it's assault, then Well, how do you argue like oh well, I didn't know that you wouldn't like that and I thought we had a thing going on, so I knowingly didn't do that as assault, I just did it to play with you.
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Well, if you really feel like it's assault, then you need to go to the police, because then that solves that.
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Then you need to go to the police because then that solves that.
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If you think it's just like a misunderstanding, then the church.
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This is where it goes from crime to not a crime.
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Right, it's a crime if the person says this person intentionally or knowingly caused physical contact with me when they should know or reasonably know that I would see that as offensive or provocative.
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And I think that's the now.
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The jury at that point would have to say did you know that this would be offensive or provocative?
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And then the person would have to reasonably argue, Because you could go.
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I walked by and like just accidentally, like hit the butt, I didn't slap it, I just walked by.
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And actually, who, without a witness?
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How?
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Who's that's a?
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He said, she said, he, he, whatever, one against the other word on word of this is what happened.
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How do you even right.
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So but let's just say you have a witness, yeah, Well, then you're up creek.
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Then you have a witness, Then that person and it's assault, and let's say they go hey, did you do that?
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And they go, yeah, I did that and you like it.
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Well, then now we've got a crime.
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If they go, oh crud, I didn't even know I hit you or I'm sorry, Then you don't have a crime and you don't have assault.
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The question is this is where Is that how a person reacts Like the offender?
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So here's the.
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I'm just reading what the law says.
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Yeah, for sure.
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This is where like, intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other regards the contact as offensive or provocative.
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So it's assault if you don't want to be touched and you've made that clear, and the person touches okay question.
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So we're dudes and, like we're playing the sport, I don't want my butt touched or slapped.
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But we all know in sports dudes slap each other on the butts hey, great job hey, good game pop.
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Well, if I did not want to be touched like that, technically, couldn't I say, hey, I'm gonna call the police because that's salt brother.
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Yeah, I mean technically, but then you would argue in the trial it would go.
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Let's talk about your personality.
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Let's talk about your character.
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Right, have you been known to?
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Uh, butt slap is that.
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Are you?
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Have you been?
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Known to are you the butt slapper?
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on the team, I mean yeah, and then and then.
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Have people told you before that they didn't like that?
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I'm just thinking outside the box here that the way that you read that and, uh, like things that happen that technically could be something that somebody could yeah, but that's, that's so weird.
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So when it goes to, I think this is the part where, when the person takes it to the government for trial, right it's taken out of the church's hands.
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That's right until that point, though, until it's like said, this is assault, it's in the church's hands, right um.
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So to the question, though, is asking sexual assault.
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But we can go down this road, I think it's how should the church handle sexual assault and sexual predators within the congregation?
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Well, so to sexual assault, like you report.
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That that's bad, and it's really specific what that sexual assault is Sexual predators.
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We actually have a policy at our church about this.
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What is how do you define sexual predator?
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Is that like someone who's somebody that was guilty of assault, I think past tense Cause predator.
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sounds more like they're actively praying.
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They already predator, dude.
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Um okay, so here's, what a sex like you know.
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You know what is a sexual predator.
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It's someone who associates with children.
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A sexual predator with a particular interest in children may show a preference for associating with grade school, middle school or high school age children.
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They may have few friendships of their own age or have unusually close friendships with children.
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They create dependency.
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The sexual predator may begin manipulating their chosen victim to create dependency and intimacy.
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In the beginning they may be very attentive, showering the individual with gifts, praise, phone calls and texts.
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This creates a feeling the victim that the perpetrator has a special bond with them.
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Okay, the next thing.
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So it's more like grooming and everything associated with that, not just the actions themselves.
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Well, hold on.
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Using manipulative language, you may notice a potential sexual player.
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Using manipulative language, they may insult or mock the victim on their behavior, appearance, clothes, friends or other parts of personal life.
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When challenged of this behavior, they may insult or mock the victim on their behavior, appearance, clothes, friends or other parts of personal life.
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When challenged of this behavior, they may lie and twist the information, making the victim feel as though they were at fault.
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So gaslighting, they may repeatedly focus on their own feelings in order to make the victim feel guilty for hurting them or pushing physical and sexual boundaries.
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Sexual predators may push past healthy boundaries.
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Their behavior may begin with something innocent touches on the back, hand or leg, but it may escalate to inappropriate touching on the thigh, near the genital, on the breast or even fondling the person without consent.
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If the predator is already in a relationship with the victim, they may cross pre-established boundaries or fail to ask for consent.
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They may use manipulation to push the person to carry out tasks they are not comfortable with.
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Or, and then the last one, expressing jealousy and controlling behavior.
00:17:07.089 --> 00:17:36.863
So all of these that I'm dealing with here are usually dealing with children who don't have the ability to say hey, that, that I didn't like that, but I do think you know, adult to adult, there might be a time when a dude does, does something and the woman feels some sort of way about it, but it's it's really, it's on her like, because if the guy is being a sexual predator that's a problem.
00:17:37.624 --> 00:17:37.804
Um and.
00:17:39.547 --> 00:17:45.471
It's a real issue and you wouldn't want that at your church at all and you wouldn't want that person in leadership.
00:17:45.471 --> 00:17:48.253
You wouldn't want that, especially around children.
00:17:48.253 --> 00:17:50.753
I mean, that's where you're like get no.
00:17:51.685 --> 00:17:56.700
Okay, if someone comes in and they are registered, they have to tell you correct.
00:17:57.019 --> 00:18:03.635
Yes, okay, yeah, a person that's a registered sex offender legally they're supposed to tell you if they come to church or whatever.
00:18:03.635 --> 00:18:04.939
Now they don't.
00:18:05.585 --> 00:18:13.980
I think the character of somebody coming in here saying just from the get-go hey, this is who I am, like this happened.
00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:23.499
That's more impressive than somebody that was registered that would come in and completely ignore it and not say anything at all because no one would know.
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.714
Right Well, there's three types of sex offenders Tier 1, tier 2, Tier 3.
00:18:27.714 --> 00:18:49.095
Tier 3 is the worst, tier 1 is the least worst and if it's Tier 1, you're only on the registered sex offender list for a certain period of time and we have it as all RSOs registered sex offenders must report in and then be escorted by a pastor, staff, deacon, somebody and not be around children, because we want to obviously protect children because they don't have a voice.
00:18:50.146 --> 00:19:08.613
um, so, yeah, I, I think that that's a big deal, um does each um, each person that comes in and says like I'm a, I'm registered, do you talk to that person and hear each like case, like each story of what happened from each person?
00:19:08.653 --> 00:19:09.275
It's online.
00:19:09.275 --> 00:19:15.270
So whenever they tell you you go, okay, look it up and it has all the details, sure.
00:19:15.592 --> 00:19:25.287
But I mean, would you if somebody came and told you, hey, would you like want to like have a like full on, kind of like an interview process of a conversation, just to fill that person out?
00:19:25.386 --> 00:19:29.517
yeah, we actually have that exact thing on our registered sex offender policy.
00:19:29.517 --> 00:19:31.067
I know that everybody wants to read it.
00:19:31.067 --> 00:19:41.606
Uh, in fact, we have an entire um uh questions that we're required to ask and this is where we would say as a pastor here at wells branch community church, I'm required to ask you these questions.
00:19:41.606 --> 00:19:45.017
Are you willing to discuss what resulted in you being under RSO status?
00:19:45.017 --> 00:19:48.275
If yes, express appreciation for the willingness to talk about the difficult subject.
00:19:48.275 --> 00:19:59.316
If no, affirm their willingness to know their limits, but make clear that we ask they may not attend Wells Branch Community Church events or services until they affirm and submit to this policy, which includes this interview.
00:19:59.316 --> 00:20:04.817
So we've really done a lot of work here in that.
00:20:04.916 --> 00:20:18.557
So if somebody's a registered sex offender, because that would be such a bummer if somebody was like somewhat innocent and was maybe like peeing by a park or made a bad decision right, doing something dumb, yeah, and I think if there's a, that's why the tears are, tell us.
00:20:18.557 --> 00:20:21.006
Yeah, the tears are so important you.
