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274: Pastor Plek and Machine Gun Nick are joined by WBCC Counselor Michael McGinnis on the podcast to illuminate the healing journey from a biblical counseling perspective. Machine Gun Nick opens up about his own struggles, from the scars of a toxic relationship to the enduring psychological impact of his military tenure – an unflinching look at the complexities of mental wellness.
Faith, culture, and everything in between.
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00:02 - Introduction to Counseling and Mental Health
06:13 - Benefits of Therapy and Establishing Clarity
17:18 - Healing and Opening Up in Therapy
Speaker 1:
And welcome back to Pastor Flex Podcast. I'm so glad all of you are joining me live from Austin, texas. I have with me in studio none other than machine gun Nick back as a regular here on the podcast. Welcome back, nick. Oh hello. And then also a huge part of Wells Branch Community Church which we're so proud of and honored by, is Michael McGinnis, counselor at Space of Grace Counseling.
Speaker 2:
and Michael, welcome Thank you for having me All right.
Speaker 1:
So what I want, what I brought Michael on for, is like I wanted you guys to know, as what we are as a church is committed to everyone's sort of mental, spiritual health, and so we've really partnered up alongside Michael and we want everyone to be take part of his ministry, and I really want you to explain what that means. Like, what is a biblical counselor first off, and then we're going to go into I really want to get into what is exactly is you do around here, but, like, show, tell us about what biblical counseling is and and where you got into it.
Speaker 2:
Okay, thank you. Well, basically, biblical counseling is a intersection between discipleship and mental health therapy, right, and I believe that they both are intertwined, because God says you know, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And that mind part he wants us to have a mental. I mean a healthy mind, a healthy mindset, so that we can practice number two love your neighbor as yourself. Because I believe many of our mental health challenges is really between our self and others, in our self and God, and just reconnecting with God helps us reconnect with the others, and so there's a discipling slash, therapeutic, mental therapeutic aspect of biblical counseling.
Speaker 1:
So how did you get into this?
Speaker 2:
Well, actually I got into a biblical counseling through a challenge that I went through my own life. I retired as a school teacher but prior to that time I went through a really painful divorce and there was a lot of things that came up in my life that really needed some serious addressing from from a spiritual, mental, relational standpoint, and I was able to get a lot of help. So through that I began to do a lot of support groups, lead some support groups and there was some, I guess, people mentioning hey, have you ever thought about, you know, being a counselor? And after hearing that a few times, it's a little bug in my ear decided Lord, okay, show me a picture, okay, show me a path that you would like for me to take, and God, show me the path of biblical counseling. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:
Okay, and so I wanted you to walk us through let's. Let's say someone makes an appointment with you and they walk in. That's why I machine gun Nick here as client. Client, nick, talk, talk us through how you would walk through that opening session and really what you're looking for.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, sure. So I want to walk through this as if you will pretend that Nick is a prospective client, and usually what I'll start out with is I'll ask the person how they found me and then I'll go directly into hey, I would. I'm interested in learning more about your situation to make sure I'm able to help you. So I have some questions that will help me get to know the situation a little bit better and make sure we're a good fit for working together.
Speaker 1:
And there's no pretending this is all real. Yeah, this is, nick is a real, yeah. Client.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, this is a real situation, so so. So, nick, tell me a little bit about why you're currently, you know, seeking therapy. What's kind of what's been the situation in your life that's got you currently seeking? You know what I need to? I need to talk to somebody.
Speaker 3:
So I go on. The first. The first thing I point out is I'm just freshly out of the clone term toxic relationship, and then there's there's kids involved and that I would definitely go back to 20 years as an infantryman and and nine of those as a paratrooper in the US Army, several combat deployments, and then I definitely would have to talk about probably some some childhood. I don't know if you call it trauma.
Speaker 1:
Small tea trauma. Yeah, OK I don't.
Speaker 3:
It's really hard to call that trauma, but childhood was, it was fun, we'll put it that way. It's sarcasm and you know as much as that. Well, that you keep shoving stuff down is, you know, when you're in your 20s, is deep In your 40s I found out, it just comes out Right. So the more you shove down there, it just eventually it's like oh, why won't it just stay there, right, and so? So yeah, I would definitely. And then you know, I think a reaction to that is I have depression. I'm depressed because set this or that I didn't zigg, or I zigged when I should have zagged, or I don't know, but it just it balled up.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
And that's that's why I'd be seeking counseling. Or I am seeking counseling, ok, or we go do counseling.
Speaker 2:
OK. So it sounds like you're saying in a nutshell because of all the things that you've been through in your life, including some of the childhood challenges, being in war, relational challenges, the way that you want to help your kids All those things have kind of led to a weight, and that weight is being manifested in a form of depression. So that's what it kind of sounds like, that you're, you know, dealing with the weight of just life. Basically, yeah, ok. So have you ever been in therapy before and, if so, what was that experience like for you?
Speaker 3:
Yes, that's perhaps the reason why I got the second divorce, so this is good and bad.
Speaker 2:
Good and bad yeah.
Speaker 1:
So how is that why you got the second divorce? What happened?
Speaker 3:
Well, so I was sitting there with and I don't remember the counselor's name, that's somewhere, it was Manhattan, kansas, just outside of Fort Riley, and we're going kind of through me and Megan's dialogue, all right, everyday conversations and his question to me was who do you think calls me that in my house? Nick, and I looked at him and I got quiet for a second. I was like nobody and he's like yep, and I was like hmm, so I was kind of like I don't want to be here, like oh, I was a victim. But I was like why put up with this crap? Yeah, you know, that was it. It was kind of like uh, what do we do now?
Speaker 1:
Like I don't like this, this is the way the counselor said that.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Like who calls me? Whatever name your wife called you, yeah.
Speaker 3:
He's like who do you think talks to me like that?
Speaker 1:
And so.
Speaker 3:
I was like nobody, All right, so. So, in other words, you know, wives don't tell their husbands or losers on a daily. They don't this is me venting, I guess they don't you know say I want to divorce every single week. You know, you hear that for 10 years and eventually you're like, oh, that's cool, let's do it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that sounds like a lot of stuff to go through for many years. So let me ask you this, nick what would be, what would be your idea outcome as a result of seeking therapy, in other words, if you were to do a few sessions and you thought that was really helpful, how would you know?
Speaker 3:
Um, this sounds so bad. I don't like to say this, but I'd be a functioning member of society again.
Speaker 1:
How are you not a functioning member of society now?
Speaker 3:
I don't. I don't even have a real job right now yeah. You know, like I want it, I want to do stuff. I really and honestly, I think this year I have a few goals set that I came up with this year. Again, I don't believe in resolutions, but I believe in setting goals, and one of them is, you know, consistency, whether that be showing up for my kids, whether that be, um, you know, just getting back into, I guess, the nine to five scram, and but just, you know, showing up.
Speaker 2:
So would you say that's more like you? Would you would? It would be helpful if you were able to have more clarity on your purpose, the purpose by what you were put here.
Speaker 3:
Well, that's funny because we have all kinds of clarity on my purpose. We knew we. I found that out last year, um, and, and that goes back to God, or I put a calling on my life. So it's just like Maybe you're refocusing on the purpose.
Speaker 2:
It sounds like cause there's other things that's going on, yeah, or taking you away from your focus then it sounds like maybe that should be a dress, or maybe just focusing, because I don't think.
Speaker 3:
I've focused in probably five, six years. Okay, all right, you know cause? There's that whole year that you're, you're retiring from the army, where you're just like, mwah, okay. Or six months from me it's like, eh, this is happening, we're getting out, okay. So think about that idea.
Speaker 2:
outcome then this, this focus, this refocusing on the purpose that you got has for your life, um, on the scale of one to 10, 10 being, like, very committed and one being, uh, what? What would be your commitment level to experiencing this ideal outcome?
Speaker 3:
I'm a man of extremes, so it's either I'm not in or I'm not in. So I it's either I'm not in or I'm all in. So I'm all in.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so you would say a 10?. Yeah, okay, so you've you've got this idea, outcome which sounds like you're very clear on what that outcome would be, as you're seeking counseling, and then it definitely sounds like you have the commitment level to match the outcome that you wish to seek. Uh, what's your? Why, what, why, why do you want to experience this outcome and to be that committed to experiencing this outcome?
Speaker 3:
And just for a better life. When it, when it really comes down to it, you know, you, I, there had to been some kind of calling for me to be a soldier. Um, and I did that. Um, wish I could have done better at it, wish I had maybe made a little different personal decisions while I was one and maybe I could have, you know, wrote it out a little longer, but it will, for whatever reason. It had 20 years on it. Um, bless that I had 20 years to give. But after that, getting out and trying to figure out who you are, because you know I'm the, I can't run a gun anymore.
Speaker 2:
Okay, Um, so you're saying, basically, your why is that you? You want to have a better life. So why? Why do you want to have a better life? What's what's driving that why?
Speaker 3:
Because those who can do, does that make sense If? you can, you should. You know I could go to war, or so I did. I can sit up here and talk about this, these things that happened in my life, that weren't fun, so I will, okay. And if I can, and if I can bring somebody out of the darkness and into the light, even if it's just a couple people over the next 40 years, because I figure at 80, I'm dead then that's that's better than than not doing that, okay so I have a follow-up question for you then.
Speaker 2:
So, if you can because you said those who can do if you can, what's stopping you from getting there on your own?
Speaker 3:
Why counseling Me? I am Everything. That it's just. I don't even know how to explain it to you, Unpack that.
Speaker 1:
So what happened? What happens to you in between? Like you know, the right thing to do, You've you've heard great stuff and then going to put into action what happens.
Speaker 3:
I don't know what I'll tell you. Like I'm like ah, maybe we'll do that tomorrow, right, it's like constant procrastination and then the whole time you're thinking or you're sitting there thinking. I'm not good enough for this.
Speaker 2:
Hmm, and I I think that's one of the one of the things that I would say comes out in in questions during counseling is because we don't do the things that we should do. I think it points to we all need help. You know, we all function better in community and, when I said earlier, biblical counseling is a um, an inter connection of discipleship and mental health and just having the, the mental clarity that we need to do the things that we need to do. We need help doing that. So one of the things that helps me to determine whether I'm a good fit for a prospective client is I ask myself can I help this person move across the gap? That means from where they are now when they first made the call and where they want to be. And I definitely feel like, based on the things that you mentioned, knowing your desire to please God, it is. It is something that I could, you know, help you move across the gap. And the other thing I wanted to share is that when your I did outcome is crystal clear as far as what it is that you want as a result of seeking counseling and you're committed to the process and the hard work that it takes to get to a point of healing and transformation. The why propels you to persevere when the process is tough, because I see that a lot of people quit because their why is not solid enough for them to carry through on their commitment and then they lose sight of the idea outcome that they want to achieve. So that's why the why is really important. And then I would just challenge you, nick, or anyone else that's listening to the podcast today, If your why is not greater than yourself and any kind of self desire I don't mean selfish desire, because a lot of our self desires are good desires and have been given to us by God but if that why is not greater than yourself, when the going gets tough you will fail.
Speaker 3:
You'll quit, you won't lean in. Yeah, press on. I definitely can see that. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:
So here we are. So we've got this like. This is the initial kind of counseling. Yes, sir, and then what's? Your next step with Michigan.
Speaker 2:
So my next step would be, you know, based on our dialogue and whether he also feels like I'm a good fit, which I will at this point ask hey, what questions do you have for me? So, what questions do you have for me, Nick?
Speaker 3:
Oh, how is that process gonna go from? Hey, like there's some days I don't wanna get out of bed right now to like, like how are we measuring that and how? What do you think we can do to fix that?
Speaker 2:
I think that's a really good question, nick, and basically what I try to do with all of my prospective clients is to let them know that I would like for us to commit to four sessions. And then those first four sessions we begin to really unpack just some of the challenges that maybe happen in childhood and your family of origin and family origin is a really big deal and then from there we have maybe an assessment as far as kind of some of the goals that you wanna set for yourself, and then there's a check-in to see how things are going. And then we unpack the assessment in a third session and talk about where you wanna go from there. And in the fourth session we begin to really hone in on some specific things that are holding you back and then we really evaluate and determine whether we wanna go further. But I think that that initial again, it's that why that really drives people past. Hey, I don't feel like getting out of bed. Hey, I don't want to the day. Hey, amat, does that make sense?
Speaker 3:
Mm.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so let's talk through like what's talked about through cause. You guys have been through counseling for a while. So what's been the? What have you progressed? I'd love for you to talk and you're open about sharing all this, I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah, so it's already out everywhere Talk to us about how Nick is doing here and how you wanna see him progress.
Speaker 2:
Well, the thing, the first thing that comes to mind is, even when he shows up and maybe he's not there all the way, he really fights to be open and be vulnerable, which that's something I appreciate is that and I tell people, the more you disclose, the better I'm able to help you. Yeah, because you can disclose as little, as much as you want to, as much as you feel comfortable with, as much as you feel like you're able to trust that other person. And I would say, if you disclose very little over time and you remain someone that discloses very little, then there's not much help gonna really come to you in that way, and that's the way it is in real life. Right. Whoever sews sparingly, bible says, will also reap sparingly, and whoever sews generously will also reap generously. So I feel like the more someone shows up, the bigger a person shows up, the greater the healing, the transformation for them. And I don't say that just only from a professional perspective, but also personally and the personal growth and benefit I had as a result of just really opening my life to those that helped me over the years.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so how would you say Nick is doing so, he shows up, he's working through things. How often do you guys meet Every other week and how? When you get in there, what are you sharing? What happened that week? Are you just? Do you have a, like a? Hey, we're now on week five. That means we're gonna talk about XYZ.
Speaker 2:
No, I don't do it that way because I feel like every person is different and I try to make sure that I follow up on what was talked about before and I think it's important to have a plan and at the same time, when things come up, sometimes you have to go off script because you want to be in the moment. And I try to stay in the moment with my client and make sure that I'm addressing things that they want to address Because, again, it's the idea outcome that they want to achieve. It is, what are they seeking as a result of coming to therapy? What is it that they're wanting to get out of that? And if it's something that's going to benefit them in their walk with God, in their relationships with others, in their health and how they live their lives, then I wanna make sure I address that. But then there is a plan within that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, okay. So Michinga and Nick, tell me about what's the biggest or the most impactful. How many times have you been with Michael so far Five or six? And what's the most impactful thing that you've maybe taken away? It doesn't mean you've implemented, but you've taken away.
Speaker 3:
Ha, ha, ha ha ha. Um, probably the biggest thing was the boundaries with mother. No, with my mom, because I think that was like that was a really deep conversation that we had. Um, ian, and it was recent because you know the transmission thing happened and I asked her for help and, yeah, like her response was you know, you, you're a turd for asking for help and I was like haha, oh gosh okay, and I think we went over that and we've circled on that one a few times.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, yes, that really put to point kind of my childhood to, and I this one of things that we always knew in the military the best snipers ones had mommy issues should have been a sniper, not not a machine gunner. Well, I mean, it's just those that have, like they're really able to disconnect emotionally because they don't have the empathy and so they just they're just able to go bam, all right next and they sort of move on. And was is that part of? I'm just curious if that stereotype holds true.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, um, that's why, whenever I do talk about, I don't think I have a problem with taking out the enemy, doesn't bother me. It's never been like, oh, that was bad, that wasn't nice. It was always like, haha, we got that way. Um, but the but and, but. Then the cross section of that is, you know, the PTSD problems that I do have is the guys that didn't come back right and feeling guilty that I wasn't them. Why, I mean, some of them were better men, not just better soldiers, but just better men human beings yeah, and it was always like why take that guy? why? Why take Anthony Legman, nick Germans, amass, right, you know, just take me.
Speaker 1:
I think, a lot of soldiers that have been to combat, marines, sailors, all those guys who've lost buddies. We've all had that sense of like where is God in that? And how did you deal with that? How did you answer that question? And maybe then and then now, well, then.
Speaker 3:
Then I was just, I was gonna go back, you know, over there at some point in time, so it was all right, it was fine, by you going back, maybe dying there. That was sort of make it right dying there, or or, you know, taking out another one of them or a few more of them, like I could you know, wrath, I guess. Right, you know, um, I don't know. It was weird because I I always told everybody I'm not gonna die over there. I don't know if I believed that or if I was, but I was all right with dying. Interesting, I you know. There's a quote from band of brothers where I think that one guy tells the guy you know you got to accept that you're already dead and then you can do everything and anything that you need to do as a soldier right. And so then the empathy portion of it is like up, we shot a guy is like cool, um right, should I go dark on this?
Speaker 1:
you can go dark on this, so.
Speaker 3:
I never did it, but I always wanted to put my finger inside a guy I shot while he was still alive yeah like.
Speaker 1:
That's the kind of darkness that like you, just like you know what's it like to be on yeah just to be like, and then wiggle it in there and be like how's that feel?
Speaker 2:
yeah, as I think about that, that story that you and Chris are kind of dialoguing through, I can't help but imagine how that wouldn't impact someone in their maybe not day to day right week to week, um, but just subconsciously, in different aspects or different things that are lies. I can't imagine how those wouldn't or couldn't be triggers right. That should be kind of looked, looked into more deeply, so maybe that's something that at some point we can talk about it and pack a little bit more well, I think it did in my kids.
Speaker 3:
I think it resonated when, once I got out. So being in it was always I'm going to go back so I can deal with this right in a destructive manner, but it's okay, it's my job. We destroy things, um. Then when I got out, I didn't have that outlet anymore, so I started to self-destruct and that's, and I didn't get. I didn't end up like I'm not in a, a meetings or anything like that. Like you know, my I was drinking heavily, um, and then one night there it went from drinking to marijuana, um, but that was because, like it was, it was coming at me bad and I just needed to like I don't know. So I got out of my mind, is what I told myself. I'm doing this to get out of my mind right and I did it and it seemed to have worked. But it's a, it's a cycle. It keeps coming back or it can keep coming back. You know, like um, two of my soldiers committed suicide from my fire team in Iraq and a fire team is four people, so I had three, three guys under me and, uh, I blame myself. Blame myself because I didn't keep up with them. You know, I went, I stayed on in the military. They got out. Um, last thing I heard about Jennings was he was. He was a well backcountry firefighter. And I was like oh great, he got what he wanted. He's where he's at. I thought he was back with his wife. That's another story.
Speaker 2:
We probably don't need to talk about on air.
Speaker 3:
But anyways, there was another person in the unit that was trying to get with his wife. You know what?
Speaker 2:
Chris, that makes me think about this statement. You guys have probably heard this before hiding in plain sight. Explain that. And sometimes things can be in our sight and we don't know where it is. Where's my water bottle? And we're looking around and someone says dude, it's right there. So oh man, I didn't even see it there, it was a snake that would bit me. And I think many times things are hiding in plain sight, which means it may be hidden from us, but it's plainly viewable to others. And I think, just some of the experiences that you're sharing, nick, I mean one. I think it's important to be very empathetic to a lot of the experiences you've had in your life which I believe that's one of the foundations of a good counselor is really being empathetic and listening to someone's story and making sure that that story is unique to that person, even if 100s of people that have been in battle Along with that. You're able to see some of these things that are in plain sight, that may be hidden to the individual, and then you compassionately and redemptively bring those things to bear so that those things won't continue to be something that can be that proverbial. If it was a snake it would have bit me kind of thing Cause sometimes those things do bite us because we don't see them and other people could see them pretty clearly.
Speaker 1:
All right, I wanna break from machine. A Nick for a second. Let's just talk through some of the issues at least as a pastor that I'm saying. You know, you've got marriage issues, you've got trauma issues. Maybe it's war, maybe it's some other thing. Sex issues, sex addiction, it's kind of like. It's sort of like in vogue, I guess, right now. How are you? What's your breadth of counseling issues, I guess?
Speaker 2:
Well, I would say this I believe that God is the one that kind of gives the increase, and I think he gives us the ability, or within our capacity, to address certain things, and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I can address every issue that everyone has ever gone through. I would say there is a section on my website under sexual addiction. It's something that's really close to me and working with men because that's something that's an area of life that got it giving me great deliverance and victory over and I believe that, again, it's something that I see quite frequently and I believe that the greatest enemy a lot of times it's again things that happen in people's past that continues to haunt them and there's some kind of pain that they're not addressing. And again, I don't say that in some kind of like you're not, it's not that at all. It's like there's some certain things in life are so daunting and so challenging for us and when we are stuck emotionally in a childhood kind of wound, we kind of feel helpless, like a child. So that would be one of the things that I would say that I really like to address. What's good man?
Speaker 1:
it's really good, so we got to wrap this up, but man. I wanted to come back. We're gonna do this again and really excited for what the ministry that you have here at our church and there's so many people that are going to you now Talk to me. Usually the big thing people always tell me is like but it costs too much. Talk to us about like, what it actually costs and why paying for counseling is the best thing somebody could do for their life.
Speaker 2:
Well, let me put it this way. I would say, in matters of marriage, when someone says, well, counseling is costly, I would say how costly is divorce?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, Always very costly. I got one for you. Marriage is hard, divorce is hard, pick your hard. But I'm gonna tell you something your finances are a lot better off married, coming from experience.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I hesitate really to talk price, because I would say that people are willing to pay for the things that's most important to them, whatever it is, even with time, with money, with resources, whatever, if the benefit of what someone's paying for outweighs the costs they're gonna make an investment. Regardless of what it is whether it's time, money, resources they're gonna make the investment. So it's like if you value what it is that a counselor is offering you, then really the cost wouldn't be an issue. And there's many things that we all pay for because we value it. Like I pay for my workout sessions with my trainer, and it's costly, but the benefit that I'm getting from it it offsets the cost. In my mind, it's worth it.
Speaker 1:
And listen if it's one of those things where you need, if you're a person that goes to our church or if you're a person that doesn't. you're in the vicinity of Austin, like we would love to help you. So, like we believe in it so much, maybe we value it more than you do and we might help you on the first couple, to kind of help you take that next step, because I know just getting started in the process is super hard. So come see us here at Wells Branch Church or go to spaceofgracesscounselingcom and get yourself signed up for some counseling. We'd love to see more more people. In fact, if you have questions, you can contact us at 737-231-0605. We'd love to hear from you on anything regarding faith, culture and everything between, and whatever mental health issue you are dealing with. We would love to help you conquer that. And, michael, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, thank you for having me, and.
Speaker 1:
Machine Gun. Nick, thanks for being so vulnerable. Oh, no problem.
Speaker 3:
Also, I'm dressed today like Phil Robertson because this weekend I'm gonna be going out with Patriot Outdoors and we're gonna do a what do you call it a treat, so I'm probably gonna be dealing with some PTSD. Just in case you are a veteran listening and you need help, reach out to us. I'll try to get you patched in with some veteran groups and ministries that I know of and just have a close look.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, hey, thanks for watching. Have an awesome week of worship. Protein movements are essential.
